[Guest]

Just wanted to make this its own thread so Jamie could be justified.

This is regarding the video where Jamie said Pat was forcing and many of us say he wasn't. This is the swimby video where the dog is casting to crates at the edge of the water.

Here's the response from Pat (public on facebook so I don't think it's a problem posting it here):

"Hi Kristie,

Yes,
I am forcing to the tables on most sends. I assume I forced when she came off the
table, I do not remember that exactly but generally I will force for that.

As you correctly note the dog had only been swimming two weeks when this session
was filmed, I was still using the collar for most commands forcing or using direct
pressure for most directional commands.

The dog loved to train, went hard on land a water. She made the derby list,
qualified all age in one of her first couple of Q's and is going to run Open and
Amat this coming spring.

Pat

"

 

[PackLeader]

Thank you very much for that!

 

[john fallon]

Ok we see what he said now tell us what he meant by it.

When you said he said Forcing are you saying he applied collar pressure with or without being preceded by an accompanying verbal command ?

john

BTW He says tables so which video are we really talking about

 

[PackLeader]

No he is using hand signals and known commands. Back and over are taught by luring first with food or a toy.

 

[john fallon]

No he is using hand signals and known commands. Back and over are taught by luring first with food or a toy.

A whistle, a hand signal or voice, it matters not, the dog was given a "command" before the collar pressure was applied hence no "cold' collar pressure/correction.

Hand signal Tap Tap Tap Hand signal regards

john

 

[PackLeader]

Is that not what I have been saying? I don't cold burn..

 

[john fallon]

Is that not what I have been saying? I don't cold burn..

You are talking in circles so it is hard for us to tell............

If he is 'forcing" on a known command, taught previously by whatever method , at the time of the videos filming, he was not "teaching" with the e-collar . End of story.

john

 

[PackLeader]

John,

Did you even read his article? I posted the link..he mentions teaching with the collar instead of a leash. Just because he's not in the video doesn't mean end of story.

 

[JS]

You are talking in circles so it is hard for us to tell............

If he is forcing on a known command, taught previously by whatever method , at the time of the videos filming, he was not "teaching" with the e-collar . End of story.

john

That is exactly right!! Teaching is teaching. Forcing is forcing. In fact. I'm not sure if, by definition, it is possible to force a command that has not been taught.

PL, you have been saying all along you teach, and he was teaching the dogs with the collar in that video. Look and listen again. At the 37 second point, he says the dog knows all these drills. That means they have been previously taught.

JS

 

[JS]

John,

Did you even read his article? I posted the link..he mentions teaching with the collar instead of a leash. Just because he's not in the video doesn't mean end of story.

I read the article. For the recall, he says he puts the e-collar AND a leash on the dog. What is the leash for? HE says it is to guide the dog toward him ... teach. Though it's not the way I would do it, nor most of us here (I think) it is still teaching. He shows the dog what he wants.

"Teaching with the collar" implies something like negative reinforcement where you would call the dog "here" and push the button. Then, relying on the dog's random behavior, you hold the button down until the dog starts toward you and then release. That is an example of teaching with the collar.

Another example is hot-spotting; correcting a water cheat with a burn when the dog in the wrong spot ... no command, no further information to the dog as to what he should be doing.

JS

 

[john fallon]

John,

Did you even read his article? I posted the link..he mentions teaching with the collar instead of a leash. Just because he's not in the video doesn't mean end of story.

Here is my take on what Pat is doing

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pa.
Posts: 2,623

I personally would not write off anything if Pat is doing it.

Do a search..... and you will find that I can be counted among Pat Nolan most staunch admires as a trainer and innovator.
If asked, I am sure he would tell us that the e-collar as a teaching tool is a work in progress and is not quite ready for prime time by the masses yet,john
__________________

"

 

[PackLeader]

Because it's not based on things people can take to the bank. Its more about reading the dog than anything. That is how I was able to tell what he was doing..I read dogs for a living i know what I'm looking at.

That alone is what makes me good at it, not by following step by step instructions. Two different trainers using the same methods get different results.

 

[john fallon]

Because it's not based on things people can take to the bank. Its more about reading the dog than anything. That is how I was able to tell what he was doing..I read dogs for a living i know what I'm looking at.

That alone is what makes me good at it, not by following step by step instructions. Two different trainers using the same methods get different results.

How does this new teaching method mesh with Operant Conditioning ?

By this I mean give me an example.

john

 

[PackLeader]

I look at it as classical conditioning. Some call it Positive punishment.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Its more about reading the dog than anything. That is how I was able to tell what he was doing..I read dogs for a living i know what I'm looking at......

That alone is what makes me good at it,......

Oh, well bust my buttons! That’s a horse of a different color! See you did not say you could read dogs. That is why so many here are having some issue understanding you. Sadly nobody here can read a dog…………
Do you even have a clue how insulting you are being? The old “I can’t explain it to you because you would not understand” may fly with Miss Molly Mini-van as you keep her boxer off the book shelf. But I tell ya smackleader it ain’t gonna fly here.


.

 

[john fallon]

I look at it as classical conditioning. Some call it Positive punishment.

P+?
I'm having a little trouble understanding you, with that not being a clasical conditioning term, so perhaps you can expand on your rational for that conclusion?...along with an example of how you teach with P+

john

 

[Scott Harris]

Just catching a little of this as the dogs are keeping me busy. It was fun watching Pat teach Robins Malinois the start of swimby by sending him on right hand overs to the over turned crate with hand signals and doing the water work with him as he had never really done anything like that. Fun stuff, better to get out and see I guess for me than the discussions pre training day at the seminar. Take care all.
Scott

 

[PackLeader]

Povlo, ring the dinner bell and the dog comes running. Except in this case the dinner bell is in the collar.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Povlo, ring the dinner bell and the dog comes running. Except in this case the dinner bell is in the collar.

Who?????

When spouting off “knowledge” it is often a good thing to get the name of the person who’s work your pretending to understand correct.
Just trying to help ya……… NOT!!!

Btw it’s Ivan Petrovich Pavlov

.

 

[Evan]

Except Pavlov used food because it is something a dog naturally desires. Do you believe dogs desire to be shocked in the same way they desire food?

Sorry, I think I'll just stay out of this one.

Evan