[Alec Sparks]

A proper training program is not all training.

Once the Boogeyman is in the dogs mind [it exists] all you can do is to make it go away [gone].

Of course the trick is not to create the boogeyman in the first place......................

 

[Alec Sparks]

it took a day at work for this to sink in.
I would very much like you to try something fun for us and report back, if able.
Dog will run straight for a tossed from the line mark and kill to get it.
Please try this.
Get a helper to stand right next to you. Dog at heel at one side helper at your other side.
Have helper toss the fun bumper. you take it, much praise. Dog will run straight to it right?
Do this a couple times until you are at the max your helper can toss from next to you.
Then have the helper start to step out a few steps and instead of tossing straight out. toss a square throw.
So helper is only a few feet in front of you and now the toss is out to the side, if you get my mental image
Just fun bumpers good dog ruffy scryffy fur and happy right?
Now you don't want to over do it with too many retrieves at once, this may take a few sessions before you report back but.
Start each session with helper at your shoulder with the first toss. Then step out and toss square. Step out 15-20 yards toss square again.
How far out can you get your helper to step, tossing fun bumpers square off, before your flair starts?

Ken, your life is now over as you know it. You're giving the same advice as me although I didn't elaborate.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Ken, your life is now over as you know it. You're giving the same advice as me although I didn't elaborate.

Dude, I spent an 8 hour shift at work thinking about an RTF thread....
Then came home and feed Chessies
I aint gotta life;-)


.

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Ken, I spent quite a while tonight with a friend and his Chessie. We talked over his dog's personality and current training situation. We did some collar conditioning with a Chessie and a pitbull (her second session). We did some marks with the above, plus another pit, and a FT lab, just for fun too.

Chessies are cool. Chefs are cool. Real Vermont Maple Syrup is cool. I think many folks would envy your life!

I'd like to spend some time hanging at Alec's place...just watching and keeping my mouth shut.

Chris

 

[Chris Atkinson]

That truth is my biggest beef with this forum. I believe people in an attempt to help are too quick to offer internet training advise, when the reality is that reading an actual dog and his issues should be in person, with a full background of what led to this state, and a good understanding of what makes dog's tick in general and the knowledge that each dog is different. Even evaluating a dog in person, I have seen good, experienced amateur trainers screw up by assuming that this particular dog is going to react exactly the same as the three dogs they had trained previously.

That's why I rarely give advise other than the most general, and suggest the person hooks up with a good amateur group or reputable pro. Now I believe this forum serves a valuable function, I just hope that people who post problems and questions on here are able to sift through all the advise and take some with a grain of salt.

John

John,

I'll gladly take suggestions on what actions I can take to improve your beef.

RTF is here to bring value to the global retriever community.

Chris

 

[Colonel Blimp]

No "pressure" trainer me, but I thought Alex's first post and Ken's follow up suggestion came from thinking about the dog and his perceptions rather than over intellectualising and / or tinkering with the mechanics of a fixed training regime. Their way appears sensible to me.

As part of the mental lay off period, but prior to the "what have we got" investigation, if it were me I'd take the chance of some real hunting days if they are available. Even if you only shoot a few fliers, I'd do it outwith the usual training areas just bring a bit of joy into the proceedings. A shoulder bag of pigeons and some scrubby, splodgy cover would do you both good.

Eug

As a BTB I recall Kens' wheeze a couple of years back about making a wee movie of any particular problem available to the forum folks ....a good idea that needs developing.

 

[John Robinson]

John,

I'll gladly take suggestions on what actions I can take to improve your beef.

RTF is here to bring value to the global retriever community.

Chris

Thanks Chris, I really don't have any suggestions as it is just the nature of the beast for internet forums to be volatile, and somewhat chaotic. You do a good job in letting nature take its course, and only stepping in when absolutely necessary. It's just that having trained a number of dogs over the years and hanging out with other guys and their dogs, I have learned that though there are general rules that apply to most dogs, actual training of dogs requires a subtle touch and ability to read your dog. That ability is very hard to teach over the internet, and the few poster who try, are many times buried among simplistic, black and white suggestions for dealing with a certain problem.

Like I said its just the nature of the beast. I have to have faith that people will be able to separate the wheat from the chaff amongst the internet advise. I didn't mean to slam the forum, you do a good job and overall this forum is a very valuable resourse.

John

 

[FOM]

I'm going to throw in a comment about this, ignoring the whole momentum issue as it looks like Alex, Dennis and Ken have that covered:

All of his lines to a mark are banana shaped. He is now running this curved line on every mark.

My dog had a left banana - it got to the point that it was a habit and affecting his marking. After puzzling over this issue with my current trainer, we found out that it was I who was aggravating this behavior without realizing it. I was crowding him on the line very subtly and it was obvious by his body language (leaning away from me, pushing left). So you might also consider having someone video tape you from behind the dog so you can see if you are also pushing/pulling the dog indirectly without realizing it.

FOM

 

[Alec Sparks]

Chris, I'll take you coming here as a complement, although it might be my BBQ ribs that you want.

You run a great ship and there's really nothing you can do about the race to answer posts sometimes.

As a very general rule I find many people tend to think pretty subjectively, it can be easy/confirming to hear/think what we already feel is correct. The challenge is to really try to view things objectively.....look at all the options and debate the pros and cons of each point with yourself. Why might it work. Why might it not. What's the up side and the down. Again, looking at things from your dogs position and NOT using human thought/reasoning processes but trying to get into his.

Many of the ideas posted on this thread might work as there can be more then one correct path much of the time. I happen to like the path that always gives the dog the benefit of the doubt, uses the least amount of pressure [while getting the optimal response for the individual dog] and addresses the 'why' not just the 'how to'.

 

[jhuggins8]

I will keep you posted on any progress over the next several weeks.

I understand about the internet training. This is the first time I have ever asked a question on here. I felt it was time to get some different opinions before I get myself if a deeper hole. It's my responsibility to put together a plan that will fit me and my dog. I know he is a fairly soft dog, so I have to steer away from the pressure.

I don't feel like it is anything to do with me crowding him or anything at the line. Because most of the time he will start out for 30-40 yards on a straight line, and then all of a sudden curve to the left or right, depending on the side the mark was thrown (on 100 yd + marks). His path is almost like the shape of a question mark (?) to give you a better idea.

 

[copterdoc]

.....I happen to like the path that always gives the dog the benefit of the doubt, uses the least amount of pressure [while getting the optimal response for the individual dog] and addresses the 'why' not just the 'how to'.

I agree entirely, with the above. I want to get down to the "why".

There is a science to training, and I truly believe that there are some highly successful trainers, that are good enough "artists" that they don't "need" to understand the science to what they do. They just "do", and can't explain "why".

I am good with science, and bad with art. If I can't wrap my mind around the "why", I can't reach a successful result.

I also think that I have a solid theory about pressure problems in dogs.

I believe that there is a "law" about pressure used in training. It's pretty simple.

Enough pressure, to work as force when understood by the dog, is also enough pressure, to cause problems when misunderstood by the dog.

There is a lot more to it than that, but that's it broken down to it's most basic form.

As long as the pressure is understood, and significant enough to effect a change in behavior, it can be used as force, without causing the dog to dream up "boogeymen".

If it is significant enough, to effect a change in behavior, but is misunderstood by the dog, it is useless as force, and will likely result in undesirable reactions.

If the pressure used to force is not significant enough, to effect a change in behavior, it is just as useless, as misunderstood pressure.

The dog sets the level. It takes less pressure to screw up a soft dog, but it also takes less pressure to force a soft dog.

 

[Alec Sparks]

I agree entirely, with the above. I want to get down to the "why".

There is a science to training, and I truly believe that there are some highly successful trainers, that are good enough "artists" that they don't "need" to understand the science to what they do. They just "do", and can't explain "why".

I am good with science, and bad with art. If I can't wrap my mind around the "why", I can't reach a successful result.

I also think that I have a solid theory about pressure problems in dogs.

I believe that there is a "law" about pressure used in training. It's pretty simple.

Enough pressure, to work as force when understood by the dog, is also enough pressure, to cause problems when misunderstood by the dog.

There is a lot more to it than that, but that's it broken down to it's most basic form.

As long as the pressure is understood, and significant enough to effect a change in behavior, it can be used as force, without causing the dog to dream up "boogeymen".

If it is significant enough, to effect a change in behavior, but is misunderstood by the dog, it is useless as force, and will likely result in undesirable reactions.

If the pressure used to force is not significant enough, to effect a change in behavior, it is just as useless, as misunderstood pressure.

The dog sets the level. It takes less pressure to screw up a soft dog, but it also takes less pressure to force a soft dog.

Nice well thought out post...thanks for taking the time.

Personally, I think I have a big does of the artists in me [perhaps to big?]. I follow a plan but have a really easy time dealing with the abstract side of training.

I really try to explain the "artist" side of the training equation because it's the 'black magic' part that's so hard for many people to grapple with. Anyone can read a manual. Many can follow its directions. Fewer can properly work outside it. Just accepting that doing everything "right" may not lead to the result you're looking for is a good start and can help people not vapor lock when it happens.

I've read this post of yours 5 time now and here's a couple thoughts:

I find it very "scientific"......"this equals that and results in behavior XYZ." I don't find it always does and here's one example.

Some of the most challenging dogs to train IMO are those that the level of pressure required to get the behavior change you're looking for is also the level of pressure that causes the dog to "panic". [you can insert some undesirable behavior in place of 'panic' if you'd like]

That level of pressure is applied in the most careful and measure/appropriate fashion but still results in.........a train wreck.

Now I'm not talking about the dog that gets bummed out for a while over a command enforcement or 'correction' but the dog that just won't comply with a appropriate response [for it's level of training] and an increase in the level of pressure the dog REALLY falls apart in one way or another.

Some of these dogs are are tough as nails while other are what I refer to as 'soft'. [Soft as I use the word, relates to a dog that is very sensitive to physical pressure. i.e. needs low collar intensity.

I have a dog in now that's just that way........handles pressure to a certain point and doesn't really give me the response I think he's capable of. Go incrementally higher and he panics.

Now some people will say that if a dog panics, it was not trained properly to handle/understand pressure. True in many cases but not all IMO. Actually, I think you can overwhelm any dog with high enough levels of pressure. [unfortunately some people seem to have that skill almost perfected.]

Perhaps we should start a new thread.....very very interesting/important stuff.

 

[copterdoc]

...Perhaps we should start a new thread.....very very interesting/important stuff.

Maybe, but this one has over 2,000 views, in two days. Maybe we can keep it on track, and help the OP come up with a scientific "why", to this problem.

I think this dog has received a correction, or series of them, that occurred near a gunner, and now it believes that the gunner is "hot".

It has placed full, or partial "blame" on the gunner, for the correction(s).

Now, to me, that boils down to a basic misunderstanding of the applied pressure. The dog might have known very well, how to "get out of" the pressure, but it didn't fully understand what the pressure was not.

So, the most simple "solution" seems to be a no pressure "therapy" approach. Restore the dog's confidence, that the gunner is "safe".

I agree, that's the simplest, and safest "solution". It gets the boogeyman to "go away".

But, it doesn't keep him from coming back.

I think there is a "better" solution. One that will allow the dog to receive corrections, near the gunner, without blaming them on the gunner.

The dog has to learn not only what the pressure applied as a correction means, but also what it doesn't mean.

I believe it is possible for that to be done. The dog doesn't believe that the bird/bumper is "hot". Why not?

We use the collar to enforce many different commands. The pressure has multiple meanings, and it is common for a collar correction to create a "hot spot" that the dog will flare, like it's a 6 foot high wall.

I don't think that any dog, ever completely understands a collar correction. There is always just enough "mystery", to cause the dog to place some of the blame on other things.

There is a reason that the dog doesn't "blame" the bumper/bird for those corrections.

 

[copterdoc]

....I think you can overwhelm any dog with high enough levels of pressure.....

This is great stuff!

I agree. If you go too high, the dog quits thinking. I also believe that some dogs "quit thinking", at a lower pressure level, than is required to elicit a change in behavior.

 

[cakaiser]

I think there is a "better" solution. One that will allow the dog to receive corrections, near the gunner, without blaming them on the gunner.

So what is the solution ????
I'm sure those of us who are careful abut corrections near guns would love to know.....

 

[Alec Sparks]

.......I agree, that's the simplest, and safest "solution". It gets the boogeyman to "go away".

But, it doesn't keep him from coming back.

I think there is a "better" solution. One that will allow the dog to receive corrections, near the gunner, without blaming them on the gunner.

The dog has to learn not only what the pressure applied as a correction means, but also what it doesn't mean.

I believe it is possible for that to be done. The dog doesn't believe that the bird/bumper is "hot". Why not?

We use the collar to enforce many different commands. The pressure has multiple meanings, and it is common for a collar correction to create a "hot spot" that the dog will flare, like it's a 6 foot high wall.

I don't think that any dog, ever completely understands a collar correction. There is always just enough "mystery", to cause the dog to place some of the blame on other things.

There is a reason that the dog doesn't "blame" the bumper/bird for those corrections.

First, it might not come back depending on several factors not the least of which is how dark are the demons. It might just have been a one off correction that put him off and some time may exorcize it. The boogeyman may never come back depending on [again] other factors.....the dog, the training......we_just_don't_know.

Yeah, the line is likely the result of some correction/enforcement around the gunner but we don't know what. [so this is all speculation]

Right off the bat I'm looking at a different picture then just the 'creative' line he's taking, I'm look at the whole picture and this is my guess.....

5 yo dog with a couple titles has done a LOT of training and most likely had dealt with a LOT of pressure getting to where he is. I/you/we can speculate about what put him over the edge but unless it was some huge ill-advised collar 'correction' [and even if it was] my thinking is that the cumulative effect of several years of training/pressure played a part [perhaps large part].

Right there is why I'd give the dog some time off and then go happy timing with him. Lord knows it isn't going to hurt.

Before I forget: "Correct", enforce or force a dog on a bumper/bird at an inappropriately high level and they will avoid that object like the plague. Dogs run marks for years but they are only forced for a very short time. Force a dog as much as you mark it and I bet some will start avoiding dummies.

I fully believe that part of any dogs rehabilitation to training induced problems is reintroducing command/action enforcements so the dog is comfortable with them again. My experience is that can be_really_really_difficult depending on the 'shadow' left from whatever demon was instilled in him.

First, I'd get the dog to relax with some time off.

Second, I'd see if the dog was comfortable running at some BB thrown marks [using his favorite bird and just_like_Ken, I'd do it very close to the dog.]

I wouldn't be surprised if the dog would run at a close mark but fell into looping on longer ones or when training became 'formal' again though. If/when it did, I first try some no pressure ideas to get it to run at the bird.....Have the BB yell/shoot/do back flips as he's on his way out, have the BB throw another bird BEFORE he gets off line, zero cover and then retire the gun during a short hand thrown off like retrieve, run a bunch of water singles if he doesn't loop on water.

One thing that has helped more then one BB shy dog back in the day for me was to hand throw marks out to and around BB just standing or sitting there. Heck, I'd even make em fun bumpers if I needed to........anything to get he thinking it's OK to run at the bird and not avoid the BB.

Next step would be to run a lot of Y drills where you're in control of where he goes and you can fairly enforce lines that take him close to a BB. I'm not a fan of anything but attrition in the Y but this may be a case where it might be a good collar re-introduction to getting him close to guns again..... [which has to be done] hard to tell looking at my keyboard right now.

If I do all that and he still loops, I'd really examine whether it was a test killing issue or something I could live with.

[I had a QAA dog years ago that LOVED to run over old falls if he could. He never broke stride or put his nose down but man, did it almost give me a heart attack when he did. It was a battle I chose not to fight because I though the 'fix' was going to cause more problems then the behavior.]

If I couldn't live with it I'd start handling him on singles, first using attrition and moving up after him when he was sent followed by indirect collar corrections using a modest [non threatening level] at first.

But ya know..........the very first thing I would do it throw 2-3 weeks of easy WIDE spread singles and not give a darn how he got to them and see what happened.

Thanks for you interest. I really enjoy thinking this out enough to get it down on 'paper'.

[be funny if the dog flared and one big burn got it running straight again though.......]

 

[copterdoc]

Thank's Alec!

That's a lot to chew on!

 

[Alec Sparks]

Thank's Alec!

That's a lot to chew on!

No problem.

You know what's funny? That's what goes through my mind in order to train in my artistic way...............You gotta have the nuts and bolts first.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

What does the dog do when you run blinds close to stations?


/paul

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Also have you done organized confusion drills with the dog to see how he reacts?

/paul