Piece of conduit 3/4" about 40" with a 5' lead strung through it clasp tight into one end the black tape the tag end over the pipe. This really worked great for me and i think I was out about 7 bucks. I'm not a big fan of pinch collars unless the dogs out of control. Just saying this but check and make sure the choke collar is on correctly if not it won't release properly when the back up a bit.

 

Prong collars can fail, jam, and I have see them break. Get a good Herm Springer Choke Collar from J&J Dog Supply and you will be good for life.

 

I use prong collars almost exclusively. Every time this issue comes up, someone refers to research that purports to show that prong collars are actually safer, but no one, to my knowledge, has every been able to find that research. However, I find that a prong collar only takes a very light touch. I suppose you could break one, but I'd think you'd have to be pretty rough with it. I've seen chokers break, which is why if I do use a choker, I insist on American or German. I also only use Herm Sprenger quick release prong collars. I've heard it said that using a prong collar like having to dog on power steering and I can vouch for that. Also, if you train to heel two-sided, you don't have to be concerned with whether the collar is on correctly (to be correct for right sided heeling vs. left, you should take to collar off and flip it around when you switch from one side to the other to prevent it locking).

If you can't find a heeling stick up there and don't want to pay the shipping if you buy it on-line (I wouldn't want to pay shipping the the NWT either), you can used the butt end of a fishing rod, size is just about right - 3 1/2' or so - and flexibility is pretty close.

 

If you can't find a heeling stick up there and don't want to pay the shipping if you buy it on-line (I wouldn't want to pay shipping the the NWT either), you can used the butt end of a fishing rod, size is just about right - 3 1/2' or so - and flexibility is pretty close.

Thanks for this advice
I found myself a fishing rod heeling stick, but I've also ordered one for the long term. I also ordered all kinds of other stuff in the mean time (bumpers, prong collar, ID Tage Collar, Training books)... I'm slightly addicted to this stuff, but I'm sure most of you can relate. I will probably need to cover the end of the rod with plastic or even a wad of duct tape

Thanks again!!

 

I like the prong collars... allows the dog to "self-correct".


As far as a heeling stick goes, go to your local tack shop and get a very short riding crop....

 

You can also take and cut the end of a horse whip off to size.

 

I like the prong and now I tend to hook to both rings as this helps with any delay in the correction and I actually think its easier to control the level of correction with this collar. Rather than good for hard dogs I find its easier for soft dogs. Less confrontation for me between the two of us with a short little pop. If the collar is snug and I hook to both I never have the collar come apart. I also saw that done in a demo on a leerburg tape. I gave a demo for a client one time with a remote collar, pinch, and choke and he was really pro choke collar. I tested all three on him and me at various levels and we both got a bruises from a hard choke collar pop on our wrists. He said get his dog on the remote as soon as I can. I use it a little different but it works great for me and my client base. I was working the Dogtra booth at the DU event 2 years ago in WI with Robin Macfarlane and I cant tell you how many guys walked by our booth with happy dogs in it saying "how cruel" as the did the yank and crank while walking away and the dog gasping for air the entire time. Choke can work great if its your tool of choice and used right. Out of the two pinch for me, but use any tool that works.

 

Oh I dont do that demo anymore to the point of injury............

 

I used to do a bit of competetive obedience. In the ob classes many folks used prong collars all the time. These folks wouldn't use them if they caused injury or reeal discomfort to the dogs. What you get with a prong collar is good consistent corrections. One good correction beats 1000 nags.

For a heeling stick, go to a place that sells horse stuff, saddles and such and ask for a riding crop, they will know what you are talking about.

 

Prong collar is the way to go.

 

Go to any horse tack shop and get a "dressage whip" and cut it off. Works like a charm!

 

Prong collars distribute the pressure evenly around the neck, where as the choke collar tends to put pressure on one area of the neck only. I have taught hundreds of obedience classes and there is nothing like having a 100 lb woman being dragged through the door by an 80 lb labrador and I offer to let her try the prong collar and it gives them a very quick solution to a very frustrating problem. Their response is usually- "where can I buy one of these?" Sometimes I think I could sell them for $100 right there on the spot!!
Jenna

 

I use the choke collar in all my training. And, when my customers get through basic obedience with me, I have them change to a martingale collar. Or, if they are moving forward into Therapy, we have to train using a flat collar. TDI won't allow chokers to be used because of possible injury to patients. i.e. fingers getting caught in chain. I have nothing against the prong, I just have never had to use one. I do agree with the "self correction" theory, though. And, I want to know how to use a "heeling stick." I have never seen one. My training methodology is so different from field. Maybe one would help in my "world." Thanks

 

Guys,
The best heeling sticks are available from the dogs afield banner at top of the page. The regular for all yard work and coming to line on marks. The “Buggy” size for the long reach, great for the T.V. room and my favorite the “Shorty” much more handy when you have collar transmitter, launcher transmitter, and stick in hand and you can get a full swing inside the cab of the truck!! Very handy

I want to know how to use a "heeling stick." I have never seen one.Thanks

You hit your dog with it.

 

Bob posted

I used to do a bit of competitive obedience. In the ob classes many folks used prong collars all the time.

Bob I'm surprised by that; all the competitive OB types I've seen use clicker. Here's a wee video showing a young Goldie dog at the start of the process (note the seated "present" position with the dog coming in from an angle. Now that's an idea! :idea

http://www.livesteaua.com/view/_6UmAIySa0M/heelwork-and-recall/

I have never used a whip, heeling stick, prong or pinch collar; just a slip lead "stopped" right behind the ears. I've now added clicker to the toolbox with great success on the latest criminal, to the point where I can see even the slip lead being redundant other than for legal purposes.

Honest ***** I don't see the need for any of the other stuff.


Eug

 

...all the competitive OB types I've seen use clicker.

Eug, surprised if any "competitive OB types" within these borders have achieved titles far beyond CDG (Canine Good Citizen, kind of a JH Lite for obedience) using clicker. Obedience trainers of my acquaintance who've put OTCHs on their dogs shun it as they might a roasted marshmallow steak offered to their dogs.

MG

 

I use a pinch collar early in the training it takes less preesure to achieve the same goal and seems a little more humane than the choker. I have never used a healing stick or whip , I have seen people use them and it seems to me like some folks get a little carried away with them to the point of abuse almost.
jim

 

Tamara,
Sent you a PM.

 

Obedience trainers of my acquaintance who've put OTCHs on their dogs shun it (clicker) as they might a roasted marshmallow steak offered to their dogs.

Why dat den?

Eug

 

Dunno, Eug, 'cept seems to have to do with working through pressure...or not. It's been averred that positive-only trained obedience dogs crumble when the going gets tough.

On the surface, obedience trials in the US and UK seem fundamentally the same. But as with retriever trials, our'n gets a wee bit more demanding. The articles ("scenting"), the send-out and the recalls and retrieve over a high jump all push the limits of obedience further.

You can get a more definitive answer to "why dat" about clicker "disdain" by asking an obedience training star. She's amenable to retriever questions, too;-)...

MG

 

I hate a clicker. I have tried them and just get confused looks from my students....the humans, not the dogs.;-) I use a choker and then go to a martingale later. But, I agree that a lot of OB people shun the methods of prong collars and sticks. But, I got a pm from a great individual that explained it (heeling stick)to me. Seems logical. But, I can see some of my people saying, OMG!!! are you beating that dog with a stick. Some of the people in my area are really silly about "devices." I just want to learn, I don't condemn them. I am in the process of watching the e-collar video to learn how to use one for my lab. He gets on a deer scent and won't recall. I have a post on that and got great answers. You people in this forum are fabulous!!!I am glad I found it. I am learning so much about your training methods.

 

To lisa...with the clicker, how do you train the humans. I have no problem with the dogs learning. I can't seem to get the humans to understand the methodology. But, I live in WV...just saying;-) (I love my state, just some of the people are idiots, and I seem to get them all for training.) Tamara

 

First of all, they are not idiots! Everybody fumbles quite a bit when taking their first dog through their first set of beginner's classes. When to give commands, when to correct, how to move, which foot moves first, when to praise, etc., etc. It is a lot of moving parts. Add in a boistrous young dog, and it's all the average person can do to hang onto the leash and remember to praise once in a while!

Teach the clicker as part of an overall introduction to rewarding the dog. It is no different from teaching people how & when to praise, or how & when to give treats. In fact, since most people really REALLy fumble with food rewarding (where to hold the food while hanging onto the leash for dear life, for starters), teaching the clicker helps with timing issues for beginners. They can click the dog even if they are still digging around in their fanny pack for that treat. The clicker is saying "Good Boy!" the instant the dog does something right, even if the food reward is a bit late.

I teach clicker by having my students do static exercises at home. Click-treat-click-treat, until the dog associates the click with food (Basic Pavlovian Conditioning 101, here). By the second week of class, all the dogs have a good idea what the click means, and the owners can incorporate the click into the regular classwork.

Clickers with wrist bands work best for beginners. One less thing to drop. From there on out, it is simply giving them all the steps in your callouts. For teaching recall "Have your treat out, forward. Call your dog, run backward. Click. Treat. Praise." Always helps to demonstrate first.

Lisa

 

how do you train the humans..... I can't seem to get the humans to understand the methodology.

Play the "Training Game" as described here by Karen Pryor. We did this last weekend after a few drinks .... the "Built in Delay" is hilarious and very instructive too. The penny will drop quite quickly. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/155

Lisa,

Interesting about your experience with shaped behaviors being transitory; thus far touch wood, I haven't seen it. I'm a bit pernickety about situational learning and that might have saved me.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Eug

 

I'm training my second lab and tried a prong collar for the first time yesterday. I was really impressed with how well it worked. I researched proper use here and at:

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

We'll see how it goes, but so far so good.

 

Good resource, Ed Frawley has some strong opinions but overall I like the videos, articles and products. Everything from remote collar training to all motivational, I think he is well rounded and open to what is fair to the dog. Big on safety for the dog and handler too. He is also a little hard on the emailers and dog owners but says stuff that you want to say to some dog owners many times. He does show how to give a fair correction and how to use the prong very well in his OB video. Its in other videos as well but I am not sure which ones. I have a bunch of them. I just tell my clients to read his stuff and take some of the extreme stuff (like I only pet my dog)with a grain of salt and remember not to judge others and their methods that work for them. I send folks there even though he says that boot camp or sending your dog away for training is a total waste and thats what I do for a living........ Ok off track, its a good source for the prong info and he sells nice ones. Dont bounce a check though as he used to list you on the site and call you a criminal.

 

I will use choke collars for puppies just because they grow through the collar sizes so fast and choke collars are cheap. But once the dog begins to approach a full grown neck size, I'll just remove a few links from my prong collar and start using that.

My old dog would pull against a choke collar and corrections would leave him gagging and retching. Changed to a prong collar and no problem. Much less force required generally and much less chance of damaging their windpipe IMO. Of course, never leave a dog unattended in either one, especially the choke collar.

 

I personally like prong collars on dogs that come into training that are already leading their owner around. Remember that dog has become accustomed to that type of behavior(being choked all the time)same type of dog that you see tied to his doghouse with a chainor running the household.
If used correctly a prong collar can become a very good training tool. Again the dogs that I use it on could care less how hard I'm (pulling and releasing his chain)-correcting. He/She has become so accustom to it. BUT that quick pinch is a new correction for "Boozer".And it is very effective.Usually after a few days of OB training useing the prong collar I can go back to a regular choke type collar and get the same good results from my corrections.
Very Very seldom if ever have I used them on my own personal dogs.
They are angels;-)
Sue