Wondering how to build confidence in the dog as far as hand signals and blind retrieves goes. Blake is 10 months old and we have almost perfected the mini T, 9 times out of 10 he does it flawlessly. He does really well with blinds as long as everything is in close. In other words, I have a hard time making him confident in my command to send him further. He will run "backs" and "overs" perfect but if he has to go further than about 20 yards he gets real confused and kind of starts to hunt for it instead of holding his line. Is this something that will build as time goes on or is there something I need to do to drive it home??? Thanks in advance.
Question for the pros on building confidence in the dog
CodyC
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most assuredly!
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Sorry Amy it doesn't work that way. The dog doesn't watch the dvd the trainer does and then the trainer goes out and trains the dog. Still gotta work sister
I do agree with getting together with a pro. In fact I suggested to the OP that if he could find a nearby pro that uses one of the programs he was using that it would be good to stick to that particular program so when he ran into trouble the pro would be able to help. You suggested a "good Pro" and I believe any good pro would want to know exactly what the op had done with the dog prior to seeking help. How nice would it be if the answer was I followed Fowl dawgs or TRT and completed each step all the way to double t. Seems to me that would be much easier than "I sort of followed smart works and duck dog basics and mixed in some 10 minute magic when I only had 10 minutes".
For me I love it when a pup buyer wants to train their own pup. I really like it when they get involved with more experienced people that can help them when their own lack of experience has them wondering if they are on the right track or if they run into trouble. I have found that when I get a call from a pup buyer or a client that is having an issue it is VERY helpful for everyone to be on the same page. What seems to get them in the most trouble is when they ask for help and get it from someone who never even bothered to ask them what skills they have taught the dog before they give advice.
What really puzzles me is why people would get there panties all bunched up because it was suggested to a novice dog trainer trying to train their own dog that they stick to a proven system to better their chance of getting as good of a result as dog and trainer are capable of. When I read all of the advice given to this young man on how to get a dog going on blinds when he has not even taught the dog to handle or even, as far as we know sit on a whistle and the big complaint is why is everyone telling him to stick to a "program" REALLY?
I hope he does start over and follow Rick Stawski or Mike Lardy so he can learn how one step builds towards another and how these dogs can learn so much if they are given a real chance at understanding what we are asking them to do. I am very glad I started with the $69.99 program as it has really helped me do a better job with the dogs I get a chance to work with. I really hope that I will learn as much in the next 5 years as I have in the last five years and I am really grateful to the folks that poured their hard work into making the $69.99 program so that I did not waste five years stumbling my way through just to get an understanding of what they taught me on their DVD's
Sorry Amy it doesn't work that way. The dog doesn't watch the dvd the trainer does and then the trainer goes out and trains the dog. Still gotta work sister
I do agree with getting together with a pro. In fact I suggested to the OP that if he could find a nearby pro that uses one of the programs he was using that it would be good to stick to that particular program so when he ran into trouble the pro would be able to help. You suggested a "good Pro" and I believe any good pro would want to know exactly what the op had done with the dog prior to seeking help. How nice would it be if the answer was I followed Fowl dawgs or TRT and completed each step all the way to double t. Seems to me that would be much easier than "I sort of followed smart works and duck dog basics and mixed in some 10 minute magic when I only had 10 minutes".
For me I love it when a pup buyer wants to train their own pup. I really like it when they get involved with more experienced people that can help them when their own lack of experience has them wondering if they are on the right track or if they run into trouble. I have found that when I get a call from a pup buyer or a client that is having an issue it is VERY helpful for everyone to be on the same page. What seems to get them in the most trouble is when they ask for help and get it from someone who never even bothered to ask them what skills they have taught the dog before they give advice.
What really puzzles me is why people would get there panties all bunched up because it was suggested to a novice dog trainer trying to train their own dog that they stick to a proven system to better their chance of getting as good of a result as dog and trainer are capable of. When I read all of the advice given to this young man on how to get a dog going on blinds when he has not even taught the dog to handle or even, as far as we know sit on a whistle and the big complaint is why is everyone telling him to stick to a "program" REALLY?
I hope he does start over and follow Rick Stawski or Mike Lardy so he can learn how one step builds towards another and how these dogs can learn so much if they are given a real chance at understanding what we are asking them to do. I am very glad I started with the $69.99 program as it has really helped me do a better job with the dogs I get a chance to work with. I really hope that I will learn as much in the next 5 years as I have in the last five years and I am really grateful to the folks that poured their hard work into making the $69.99 program so that I did not waste five years stumbling my way through just to get an understanding of what they taught me on their DVD's
A couple people in this thread have sent the OP a link to a knowlageble Pro, Nationally known, by the name of Farmer.
That link has an article titled "starting cold blinds."
Before Mr Farmer starts discussing blinds, he explaines what the pre~requisites are.
So, the OP got that information very early on, if he chose to read it, like maybe some of you should.
Its very good.
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And its a great article I have read it many times, and it was good advice. I am wondering why you quoted me in your reply?
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So if you said to the op "Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very
solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar
conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced
from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The
first thing I do after completing the double-T is to teach the dog handling and casting
wagon wheel."
And then asked him do you know what this means and do you know how to teach all of these skills and his answer was no what would you advise next?
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Let's face it, every pro is going to ask about the dogs history. What has been done or not done. Honesty is key, many times the dogs I get the owner says I did X, but it's clear that wasn't finished. Seeing the dog says it all. A good structure is needed, that's the only value I see in videos, outside of that you have to read the dog and only experienced dog people can do that. I know I give Evan crap, perhaps that is unfair, however we are talking about living breathing creatures, unique and individual and every one of them need personal attention. Read the dog in front of you.
/Paul
/Paul
The OP asked for a PROS advice!
Gooser shouldnt even be gettin involved...
I think the link to a very knowageble Pro said it all..
MAYBE since the OP wanted a Pros adive,, and got the direction to a Pros site,, well just maybe he will ask that Pro directly...
Gooser isnt the one to ask (or give advice) about what HE (Gooser) WOULD DO......
I have learned!!!!
got the scares to proove it!
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I do not disagree with that AT ALL. Its great advice. I just think following a program start to finish is the way to go for ANYONE that wants to train their own dog and lacks experience. THAT WAY when the issues come up, AND THEY WILL it is a lot easier to get help. I recommend that novice trainers watch the segment of the training they are currently working on every day before they go train no matter how long they are on that skill, watch it every day. THAT WAY when they ask for help they should at least remember what they have done and in what order. To me it just makes sense. I don't sell DVD's for myself or anyone else and I don't care much for the practice of chasing folks around here doing so for personal gain. I believe the training material I started with GREATLY shortened the learning curve for me and can do the same for everyone else that has the common sense to follow the advice and STICK TO THE PROGRAM. I have stated several times in my past post that getting help from a pro is a VERY GOOD idea.The OP asked for a PROS advice!
Gooser shouldnt even be gettin involved...
I think the link to a very knowageble Pro said it all..
MAYBE since the OP wanted a Pros adive,, and got the direction to a Pros site,, well just maybe he will ask that Pro directly...
Gooser isnt the one to ask (or give advice) about what HE (Gooser) WOULD DO......
I have learned!!!!
I understand that when you get to spend time with a good pro and watch him work you get to see him use a different approach to teach the same skill to different dogs. I know that one approach will not work for every dog, I GET THAT. But every pro I know that is any good follows the same sequence when it comes to teaching the skills that build a good retriever 99% of the time. They have a particular order that they teach things and they stick to it because it works for them and their job depends on it. That is what a "PROGRAM" is, it may be of their own design but it is a "PROGRM" none the less.
Ask Chris if he could get a dog running blinds buy sticking a bumper on end in the grass at 30 yards when the dog has only been thru mini T and we don't know if it was forced proper or even sits on a whistle yet. ;-)
I think we agree on a lot of this stuff Gooser maybe you thought I was saying all the advice Cody was getting was bad. I was not saying that AT ALL. I was just really hoping someone could help me understand why when folks started telling the op all the one drill easy fix stuff the thread went to "PROGRAM" bashing. What I was telling him is the same thing you did. STUDY some material from someone that has got building a good dog figured out and go from there. Then get help if you need it.
Have a good day Gooser and if you see Chris soon tell him I said hi.
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Be carefull who you listen to....Being a Pro in a lot of cases simply means that they have taken money for training or handeling Retrievers.
In the case of Danny Farmer this is far from the case.... If done at the propper time in the the dogs training, the way he outlined , though you may still face some problems, the odds are that they will be less difficult to resolve than if you tried to take shortcuts with the dog.
john
In the case of Danny Farmer this is far from the case.... If done at the propper time in the the dogs training, the way he outlined , though you may still face some problems, the odds are that they will be less difficult to resolve than if you tried to take shortcuts with the dog.
john
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Tim thanks for your responses! I hope the OP and the rest of us understand the importance of a really solid foundation before we jump from A to B. Be fair to the dog and yourself.
From Tim:
So if you said to the op "Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very
solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar
conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced
from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The
first thing I do after completing the double-T is to teach the dog handling and casting
wagon wheel."
From Tim:
So if you said to the op "Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very
solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar
conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced
from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The
first thing I do after completing the double-T is to teach the dog handling and casting
wagon wheel."
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very true statement
Let me play unorganized thinker here
Are you saying Mr Danny (southern idiom) does not take money for training or handling retrievers,,, If so what is his reason for avoiding running the amatuer. I think he would do well in that venue,,,( end of unorganized thought)
The OP asked for advice from dog trainers who do this for a living. Those who responded ,,did so with reasonable internet responses.
Pete
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I do not know what I said or did to provoke the strong reactions from Evan and Tim. I don't see how my post can be construed as attacking "programs," although perhaps just the fact that I spoke up, and many of you know my attitude regarding programs, makes it seem that way. I did try to be respectful.
I am a member of the group the OP asked for responses. I think it's fair, in fact desirable, to let newbies know that differences of opinion exist among those of us with enough experience to have a sense of what we're doing. Further, I gave good advice that in my opinion needed to be included.
It appears to me that of the beginners who have done decently using "programs," the fact that they have also sought out clubs and experienced training buddies has been a help. People training in isolation can go pretty badly awry--I know, I've fixed some of their dogs.
I have disagreed with most of what has been posted on this thread but have not wanted to hijack it with arguments. I will respond to the following, hoping that it will not mushroom.
I do get valuable information from listening to what owners tell me, but what I find most helpful is how the dog reacted when the owner did this or that, not which routines were attempted and for how long.
Tim, by your definition I am not "a good Pro." I am not going to get worked up over this; I simply put it down to our having different ideas about how best to train dogs and educate owners. It would be fine with me if you would also relax a bit regarding our differences, or else explain to me what I said that you find offensive. Because I have no idea.
Amy Dahl
I am a member of the group the OP asked for responses. I think it's fair, in fact desirable, to let newbies know that differences of opinion exist among those of us with enough experience to have a sense of what we're doing. Further, I gave good advice that in my opinion needed to be included.
It appears to me that of the beginners who have done decently using "programs," the fact that they have also sought out clubs and experienced training buddies has been a help. People training in isolation can go pretty badly awry--I know, I've fixed some of their dogs.
I have disagreed with most of what has been posted on this thread but have not wanted to hijack it with arguments. I will respond to the following, hoping that it will not mushroom.
I think what I said was an experienced dog trainer. There are plenty of amateurs whose help would be a thing to have. I would not be that concerned with quizzing a dog's owner as to what had been done. In my experience, dog owners can think they've done a routine effectively when they haven't, and they can embellish to impress me. Dogs don't lie. They show what they know and what they don't. I can come up with a plan of action for that particular dog to address the things it doesn't know. By leaving out extraneous steps, I get the dog and owner to the goal faster, which is positively reinforcing to the owner.
I do get valuable information from listening to what owners tell me, but what I find most helpful is how the dog reacted when the owner did this or that, not which routines were attempted and for how long.
Tim, by your definition I am not "a good Pro." I am not going to get worked up over this; I simply put it down to our having different ideas about how best to train dogs and educate owners. It would be fine with me if you would also relax a bit regarding our differences, or else explain to me what I said that you find offensive. Because I have no idea.
Amy Dahl
I would totally agree with you Amy. programs smograms,,when it comes to problem solving. But I also think Tim is correct,,I didn't see him contradicting what or how you do something ,,,rather looking at it using a different route in kind. Neither is wrong just different .
Programs don't fix squat,,,people who have trained a lot of dogs will testify to that,, but it is something that a new person with no help can go by for guidance.
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Yes Pete, Mr Danny takes money for training and handling retrievers, IMO he is among, if not the top FT pro/'s in the country.
What I did say was that all pros are not created equally, ...........
john
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I agree with you John. Even in the face of his selling DVD's, still he manages to be an excellent trainer. If CodyC could connect with him he'd do well. I'm friends with one of Danny's assistant trainers, if he'd like to pay a visit. What about it Cody?
Evan
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