[Fowl Play WA]

Do your dogs have issues with the return? Do you use different commands in HT and obedience competitions?

As of now, Gunner is doing a decent job of differentiating between "Here" (which means sit in front of me for Harleigh's 4-H) and "heel" (which means on my left side.) He seems to be understanding that when he's retrieving something, he goes to the left, when he's just returning without something in his mouth, he stops in front of me. I'm just curious how others handle this situation?

 

[Suzanne Burr]

Retrievers are pretty smart when it comes differentiating between commands that sound alike. Just make sure when you say a command you speak clearly and slowly enough so they won't mistake your meaning.....particularly when you get into class competition and the butterflies start fluttering.
Sounds as though you are just getting started and doing Novice. When I did competition obedience, I started with "Front" and "Heel" and they meant exactly that, but when it came to go outs and jumps, I didn't want to muddy the waters and I stuck with "Back" or "Go Back" for the go outs and simply "Jump" with the proper arm extended for the bar and high jumps. "Over" was strictly for blinds in the field. You could also teach a "go round" for the heel if you thought the dog was having trouble with the go to heel position command.
Good luck,
Suzanne B

 

[KwickLabs]

I have two hunt test dogs that are taking OB classes this winter (Intermediate and Advanced). They did last winter, too. The instructors have been very easy to work with about allowing different choices for various commands. For example, they accepted "sit" and "down" without "stay" or "wait". I guess that was the most difficult concession to ask for.

This winter I pushed the envelope a bit with one command. With a dog in the front sit position, the instructors expect a dog to heel backwards facing you on a "back" command. I explained "back" means something entirely different to my dogs. Since any word theoritically can be used as a command, by dogs now walk backwards facing me on "blue". Yep, "blue" is a command.

Another issue I had to explain was my dogs do not need a "funnel" for treats. Funny story from a session last year. The instructor explained that the next exercise was going to be a huge challenge. We were to put our dog on a "down" and the instructor was going to walk up and place a treat right in front of each dog. When she came to Gunny, she was amazed that Gunny was like a rock. I could see that Gunny was actually asking, "What the heck is that?"

 

[T. Mac]

One of my dogs had a hard time differentiating between here and heel. The more I worked at it the more confused he became. I finally went to the command "front" for a front return and that seemed to work a lot better. You might give that a try. Seems he was a monosyllabic listener and anticipated based on the first syllable he heard. My other dogs didn’t seem to have as much of a problem with it.

T. Mac

 

[BirdNMouth]

I use "Here" for coming directly to heel. I use "Front" to come sit in front.
In the past I used "Here" also to mean heeling in field work and "Heel" for obedience work.. That is in field, the dog can look out ahead and it isn't a crime if he is slightly forged or lagged where as "Heel" means heads-up attention and very precise heel position..
However, with this set of dogs "Heel" is being used for field and I am now using "Strut" for obedience...

 

[Deb Z]

I do both venues, and I find that keeping the words different helps my dogs tremendously.

I use many of the same words/things already mentioned:

sit/down-never with a stay command since I expect the dog to remain in that position until directed otherwise.

Front, heel (left sided competition style heeling), here is my field heeling command, reverse (for going backwards), and jump (I never use over).

For me, in utility class, I also give the dog a different word other than back. I use "look" to have them look straight out, and "go" to release them to the go-out point. While my dogs will run straight back, I don't want them to think that they are actually running a real blind (had one go over the gate and outside the ring looking for the blind with a total disregard for the "sit" command because she was always thinking no blind would ever be that short), so I now exclude that word from obedience.

I am also very cautious about hand placement when I start doing obedience work and I need to use signals or give a directed jumping signal. My hands always start from my sides for obedience work, and always start from in front of me in the middle for casts.

I am not sure how far you intend to carry your obedience work, but the only thing that would change for you if you intended to go past Novice work and into Open is the dumbell retrieve. Right now you say that you dog is understanding the difference for front or directly to heel, dependent upon the absence or presense of an item in it's mouth. In open, you will have two dumbell retrieves that will require the dog to sit in front of you.

Best wishes to you...

Deb Z

 

[Furball]

This is the sort of things dogs will get much better at with experience (and a consistent trainer). It is much more about CONTEXT of the commands than the commands themselves.
For example, I use "Back" in field work in it's normal context, but I also use "Back" in obedience for the glove #3 pivot. Two totally opposite behaviors. There has never been any confusion. The dog knows the set up, the environment, my behaviors, etc, so there is no confusion. Same with "OVER" for casting vs. "OVER" for jumps -- both in open & utility I only use the word "over."
The key is to never practice the two in the same session, and preferably, don't make your practice grounds the same. I do not have much of a yard so I always drive to train, yes I mean by myself on weekdays for even a 10-minute training session. I have every patch of grass in a 5 mile radius scoped out! This not only makes it easy for the dog to realize "Here's where we do obedience!" and "Here's where we do field work!" but it is great for desensitizing the dog to environments outside the home.
In obedience vs. field you are using totally different body cues, different equipment, different training areas, different vocalizations, different motivations (i.e. food vs. bumper). Dogs pick up on this very very quickly. Be consistent and you should have no problems.
Best of luck!
--Anney
& Fisher too
CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UD RAE TD JH WCX CCA VCX (golden)

 

[Fowl Play WA]

Sounds as though you are just getting started and doing Novice. Good luck,
Suzanne B

Gunner is my daughter's 4-H project. She's a month shy of 7 but I will also use him in hunt tests. I will probably never compete with him in OB, but she may dabble in some Junior Handling. He seems to be understanding the difference between the types of practice quite a bit. I wanted the commands really simple because my daughter is handling him and I don't want her to have too much to think about.

Right now, for her being shy of 7, and him being less than a year, they're still light years ahead of the other beginners in the club because of his field work. I think that simply having the leash on him for returns in 4-H is a signal for him to sit in front before going to heel.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[Miriam Wade]

All the replies are good, but I can relate to Furball's. The context of going from heeling patterns, figure 8s, etc. has the dog in the obedience trial training zone. I do a fair amount of training indoors (we're ready for Open-I think).

To answer your question-I know my "Here" on the recall is a different pitch than when I'm working him in field. I used a treat to initially train the front on the recall and tweaked for a straight sit. Initially-he did want to go to heel position, but it's like anything else-they just need practice and experience for it to be rote. Stand for exam is a good example-it's natural for them to want to ease into a sit. Until you incrementally extend the time you have them doing the exercise and praise for success-they don't know what the right response is.

Field dogs make great obedience dogs. It's funny how sometimes the dog who challenges you to get to line first in a trial is the same dog w/ flashy, precision work in the obedience ring. They love the work!

Connie Cleveland writes a great column in the GRNews. I haven't read any of her books, but you may want to look into them. I can't imagine there wouldn't be something that could help you.

M

 

[windycanyon]

I do both plus agility which complicates things further. There are spots where different commands are helpful for sure. Come to us, means front. "Here" means wherever I'm directing them (to heel or right, even--- for agility mainly). Theoretically, you should be able to just use HEEL in the field when they bring back a bird. And use HEEL for reverse Heeling... it's a position, afterall. I do use Back in the field, and Go Back in the obed ring(with different volume of command due to the much different distances involved) as someone else pointed out-- the general concept is the same that you are sending them away until you stop them. My agility instructor tried to teach us a hand sign for one manuever that looked too similar to the field "back" and was all flustered when I explained why it would not work for us, but I found something else that worked for agility. I use Over for the obed broadjump but rarely use a verbal over for casting though I do in the very beginning. I use Jump for agility and directed jumping since you get both hand and voice there in Utility (though I've yet to actually take a dog in the utility ring). "Find it" is my tracking command and "Find Mine" is my utility scent article command.

I used to send my dogs (on marks) using the same command as obed (Take It). Got some strange looks by some judges until at ribbon time they read the dog had a CDX title and said "that explains that". In obed, you cant send your dog on his/her name or it's considered anticipation! Yes, tone of voice helps but... sometimes our voices get all funky in the obed ring, lol. Consistency is the key if you are going to do multiple venues w/ the same dog especially if it's concurrent as I've done. It's entirely possible to do well at all of them if you set your mind to it. Anne

 

[alynn]

Our first dog earned his SH with my husband before becoming my Nov A dog (ended up with a UD and OTCH points). He was a real team player, but not very confident. I did all of the things folks above described for helping him differentiate between field and obed and it worked almost all the time. However, if he got nervous in the ring he would always return to heel position and not to front. It almost looked like he would get overwhelmed by something, and his little brain just went back to the first behavior he practiced -- return to heel. I could sometimes see it coming . . . It hurt to lose the points, but given how hard he tried it was kinda endearing.

 

[Cheryl Knapp]

For what it is worth:

Obed: "heel" [walk with me]; "come" [recall to front]; "heel" [to go to heel position after coming into front]; "get it" [retrieve on flat & retrieve over the high jump]; "down" [drop on recall]; glove 1 or 2 - "heel" w/"get 1" or "get 2", glove 3 - "get back" for reverse rotation in place and then "get 3"; directed jumping - "look" before saying ready, "go out", "sit", "jump" with signal [for solid jump] or ''bar" with signal [for bar jump]; moving stand - left hand swings in front of their face with "stay" verbal. Scent articles: "find mine". Expecting to be rewarded with various treats after performance is finished and we are back at the crate. Always ready for petting/loving from our friends after working.

Hunt training: "heel" [walk with me], "come" recall, "watch" for marks, "get it" for retrieving marks, "look" for blinds with "get it" for retrieving blinds. "over" with signals for left or right movements in field or just signals - depends on the situation. Never looking for treats, just praise and romping around behind the truck.

My girls seem to accept and know where we are and what we are suppose to be doing. Obedience is done with a very thin & light black kangaroo "choke" collar for Jewel-E and a black rolled bucket collar for Gem-E. Obedience clothes for me are black pants, black shoes, different shirts with field lab printing on them. Hunt tests come without collars only black slip leashes. Hunting tests are always for me camo pants, shirts, boots, jackets, etc. Hunt training for me is always white or black shirts with camo pants, boots etc.

DOCOF competition is the only time I wear a camo shirt into the obedience ring with khaki pants, beige shoes.

Now when the service dog capes go on for "hearing" dog in public, they both know and remain quiet, subdued, always in heel position, oblivious to people walking beside or against us. Orange cloth collars, orange leads, orange capes.

Now, all that said, Jewel-E had to retire with only a few OTCH points and it doesn't look like she will be able to compete for Masters or Finished. We are working on Upland and see how that goes. No limping we may expand out in the Fall. BUT add to that her age will be 11 then so it will be iffy.

Gem-E is now working on utility, hoping to show Util A the end of Feb. Her obedience and rally titles each have come with qualifying and placing every time we enter a ring. No NQ's yet. [Yes it is going to happen!! Just has not yet.]

We have yet to qualify in Seasoned or Senior because she isn't responding well to signals at a distance for blinds. My fault, not hers.

I've never tried agility and only touched on tracking with my girls.

As I said above, for what it is worth, that is how we have worked so far.

 

[Laurie McCain]

I have a two year old Labrador that does both. He finished his CD on a Saturday this Novemeber and finished is JH the very next day.

I teach competition obedience classes and believe that dogs are smart enough to handle different commands for similiar exercises. I do have different standards for heelwork in obedience i.e. he must have focused attention and watch me as we do the exercise.`Also, an obedience front needs, for me, to be as perfect as possible.

In obedience my heel command is strut and front is the recall command. In the field the heel command is heel and recall is here. I only cross over for the finish command with is heel for both.

Laurie

 

[Flats3]

We do obedience, conformation, rally, tracking, hunt tests and hunt with our dogs and they go from venue to venue with little problem. As Furbal said, the dogs pick up on envirnomental changes and associate this with the command. As a result we can use the same command and it will mean something totally different to the dog depending on where they are. For example a "back" in the field is a release to the mark where a "back" in a Rally obedience course means you start walking backwards until I tell you to heel again. An "over" in the field means go left or right versus an "over" in obedience means to take a jump. I have also used the "over" command when hunting when I wanting the dog to go over some fallen logs and into a thicket.

The other clue for the dog is the collar they wear. They know just by which collar we get what they are going to do. A thin conformation slip collar means they walk around the ring and look pretty where a tracking harness means they get to track a scent around a field. They even know the blaze orange collars means that they get to go hunting.

Right now our field dog is learning the difference in whistle sits. When doing hunt tests a whistle means to turn around and sit and wait for my command. But when we're hunting or doing upland hunt tests a whistle when the bird flushes means to be steady but keep your eye on the bird because I just might hit this one and then you'll have to go retrieve it. As she gets more experience I hope to be able to drop the whistle and train her like the pro we use whose dog knows that when hunting she's free to break on the flush but when in an upland hunt test, like the Grand, she has to be rock steady on the flush.

Dogs are remarkably adaptable and pick up on far more signs than we realize.

Hal

 

[jeff t.]

Only thing I recall doing that hasn't been mentioned is a modifiying the drop signal for Utility and Open so that it was different from the straight up back in field work.

One other suggestion.... if possible, introduce scent articles before pile work in the yard (especially before force to pile). It can be hard to get a dog to confidently work the pile of scent articles if it has been corrected in the yard for shopping the pile.

 

[Montview]

This winter I pushed the envelope a bit with one command. With a dog in the front sit position, the instructors expect a dog to heel backwards facing you on a "back" command. I explained "back" means something entirely different to my dogs. Since any word theoritically can be used as a command, by dogs now walk backwards facing me on "blue". Yep, "blue" is a command.

I did the same thing, only I changed the command to "scoot" meaning to back-up or go in reverse. I had already taught my pet-bred girl how to "back" from early on (for her, "scoot" initially meant "get out of the way!" such as when underfoot in the kitchen), but for the dog I'm currently working with in the field, I plan on using the "scoot" command for reverse and "back" meaning sending on a blind (hopefully, once we get to that point, LOL).

 

[windycanyon]

One other suggestion.... if possible, introduce scent articles before pile work in the yard (especially before force to pile). It can be hard to get a dog to confidently work the pile of scent articles if it has been corrected in the yard for shopping the pile.

No kidding, Jeff. The scent articles were my biggest hang up w/ Rosa and why I didnt get her to the utility ring. She had it ingrained too deeply to just go out and get the first one and get back to me. I think I will be trying scent work much earlier w/ my 9 wk old here.

I use sort of a sweeping/fluent Down signal that seems to work just fine. Anne

 

[Fowl Play WA]

Thanks for the collar suggestion. I will keep that in mind. Right now Gunner wears an e-collar for hunting work, and sometimes a training collar with a check cord (to satisfy the leash law when I work him in the alley) and for 4-H/obedience, a martingale and a regular leash. That's a really good tip.

 

[Furball]

Only thing I recall doing that hasn't been mentioned is a modifiying the drop signal for Utility and Open so that is was different from the straight up back in field work.

One other suggestion.... if possible, introduce scent articles before pile work in the yard (especially before force to pile). It can be hard to get a dog to confidently work the pile of scent articles if it has been corrected in the yard for shopping the pile.

I start my casts with hands in front like a "praying" position so to me this is a real big cue for the dog that I don't mean "lay down!" Although I will say, when first teaching Fisher 3-handed casting, if he got frustrated or confused he would occasionally lay down if given a right back cast -- well, at least he's trying!
I did scent articles well before pile work -- but I will tell you, Fisher HAS to sniff every single bumper in a pile before picking one up. (the first time he comes to it) Other field trainers might want that nipped in the bud but I leave him alone and let him work it out. After all the work I've done on articles, I'm not about to correct him for not just grabbing a bumper from the pile! And since he doesn't pick one up, drop it, pick up another, drop it, etc, it's not really "shopping" right? Pick your battles! This is not one for me!
--Anney

 

[Miriam Wade]

No kidding, Jeff. The scent articles were my biggest hang up w/ Rosa and why I didnt get her to the utility ring. She had it ingrained too deeply to just go out and get the first one and get back to me. I think I will be trying scent work much earlier w/ my 9 wk old here.

I use sort of a sweeping/fluent Down signal that seems to work just fine. Anne

I haven't had the issue w/ his differentiating between scent articles and shopping at the pile in drill work/blinds, but...

...one of the ways I introduced the scent articles (he's weaned off this now) is to have all the articles except the one he was to pick up fastened down, so that he wasn't successful retrieving the wrong one. Again-I think most retrievers (especially Golden noses! ) love this part of Utility and the chance to work independently.

M