I don't know about running them over. Can't you come up with some new ones in the same field?

Did you try moving up to simplify, or did you just battle it out? I know 40 yards isn't far, but I doubt the dog was just trying to fight you. I'd try to simplify.

Have you ever seen the chair drill that Rex Carr used to run? That might be a good exercise for initial lines.

Finally... Key hole blinds in a Master test? Are they trying to make them into mini field trials? Making them pass/fail based on going through a little key hole IMHO is BS...

 

(snip)

Finally... Key hole blinds in a Master test? Are they trying to make them into mini field trials? Making them pass/fail based on going through a little key hole IMHO is BS...

Lots of keyhole blinds, but there is no where mathematically or in the literature to completely fail the dog for not taking the keyhole. ALTHOUGH IT HAS BEEN DONE.... It is not fair and there is no way to legitimize a dog being dropped for missing JUST the keyhole when the rest of the blind was adequate.

-K

 

You've never seen me run a blind, so take this for what it's worth (0.0), but since you'd used the bales as a destination point before -did you start out by having him just behind and between the 2 bales, so that his initial line was having him comfortable with that concept? That and backing up and increasing the distance (which is what it sounds like you're now going to do) would be what I'd suggest, but I'm not too qualified to give advice on this.

M

 

I wouldn't repeat them as memory blinds. I would just run from a different spot and simplify the blinds. Walk behind him if you have to and use attrition and not pressure. Or use bird boy blinds as well to keep his attitude up. I wouldn't repeat the blinds as patterns. A good hay bale field is seasonal at best so I try to run at them from as many different angles as I can. And after a big session of hackin it up, go do some happy stuff just to get your dog back. Hope this helps.
Greg

 

Thanks Buzz I'll try that. I think he may have just become accustomed to looking out in a field and seeing anything, any obstacle and if I pointed him at it he has established the habit of that being where the blind is.

I'll look up the Rex Carr chair drill you are talking about and try it. Thanks!

As far as the keyhole blind in a MH test. yep that's what I saw. The dogs had to go through a gate (about 12' wide) to get to the blind. The really bad thing about that set up was that on either side of the opening the fence was overgrown with vines so if the dog moved to far either way once it got inside the gate opening you were toast because you couldn't see the dog and the dog couldn't see you. The blind was about a 100 yard blind through the gate and then another 20 or so past the gate opening. Quite a few dogs were dropped right there.

So with that said we are working on a lot of new stuff. We are working triples, blinds up the middle between the marks, poison birds (which it blows me away that those aren't any problem at all, I thought those would be the hardest of all. Oh well.)...and keyhole blinds, which didn't look that hard...but I guess they were way harder than I had anticipated.

Thanks

 

I'll look up the Rex Carr chair drill you are talking about and try it. Thanks!

Thanks

The only place I've seen it explained is on the Rorem/Carr DVD, so I'll describe it a bit. He would put out a blind and then put out two chairs with people sitting in them, so that the dogs had to run between the chairs in route to the blind. He put people in them because the distraction level is higher that way. He starts out with the chairs close to the line, relatively far apart. If the dog tries to go outside the chairs, he handles or recalls the dog and lines it again. Gradually he moves the chairs farther from the line and moves them closer together, in other words, he raises the standard slowly as the dog improves on taking the initial line. From what I got out of it, he didn't repeat like a pile drill. He would run a blind, then move the set-up a bit, and run another cold one.

This is for initial lines only. It probably won't help you hit a key hole at 200 yards, but it might help you hit one at 40...

 

Too many factors at one time for the dog. Running long blinds across factorless fields is much different than what you attempted here. You mention it became a handling war and I won. I think at sometime during the battle you have to ask yourself “does the dog have sufficient education to know what I’m asking him to do?” You mention that it was total confusion in how you read it, which is probably true. I would break this down into a drill format so you can have success. The dog is young and needs to understand working with you (trust) and also needs to understand the concept of both going to an object and away from an object. This drill can help start you into those concepts in a controlled settings that should bring more success and focus on skill your looking for. Please excuse my poor diagram, I’m sure there are better ones for this but it is what it is.

/Paul


Here’s how,

Go to a flat feature less field and setup a blind 100 yards. At 50 yards put up a holding blind and put a gunner in it. Run the blind past the gun station a few times to the dog really knows and understands the where the blind is.

#1 – Have gunner stand while you run the blind. Then have the gunner throw the bird away from the line to the blind. Pick up the bird, run the blind. Have gunner throw the bird again away from the line to the blind, pickup the blind first then pick up the bird. Handle to blind as necessary, use gunner help if needed picking up the mark.

#2 - Have gunner stand while you run the blind. Then have the gunner throw the bird over the line to the blind. Pick up the bird, run the blind. Have gunner throw the bird again over the line to the blind, pickup the blind first then pick up the bird. Handle to blind as necessary, use gunner help if needed picking up the mark.

#3 - Have gunner stand while you run the blind. Then have the gunner throw the bird on the line to the blind. Pick up the bird, run the blind. Have gunner throw the bird again on the line to the blind, pickup the blind first then pick up the bird. Handle to blind as necessary, use gunner help if needed picking up the mark.

 

1) don't repeat blinds
2) "close the gap" by moving towards the dog as he's running towards the blind. This helps clarify what you want, as the farther away you are, the more likely you'll have confusion. Closing the gap is a great way to simplify while maintaining LONG blinds
3) threepeats like you were doing are a great way to work on a concept like this, but go from SHORTEST and simplest to longest and most demanding. OR do three that are simplified version (no tight keyholes, fewer bales, bales up closer with tail end of blind easier, etc. etc.), equidistant. This is a good way to teach a concept to a young dog, repeating the concept in a simple manner. Then when dog KNOWS the concept, your threepeats can get increasingly challenging so the last of the 3-4 (or more) blinds is quite long and demanding.
4) Be VERY careful of using pressure where YOU may be the cause of the problem. Yes, your dog should listen to you. But YOU may have been the one that taught him to run at haybales, as you admitted. So HELP him cast properly off the bales by closing the gap and making your casts clear. A collar correction wouldn't be a terrible idea after a couple of refusals TO THE SAME BALE, but just make sure you're being fair.

 

Wow!

Lots of good info here!

1) For starters I guess the consensus is don't repeat. OK.

(I don't understand that one, but I will not repeat from the same location...anyone care to explain why no repeat??? My way of thinking was that it would give the dog confidence in that he would know where the blind was now since he has run it and he would drive past the distractions i.e. the hay bales and it would give him confidence to drive past distractions...but then that's why I'm an amatuer and you guys are pro's and remember this my first dog. He's teaching me way more than I'm teaching him.)

2) Simplify. OK. That's an obvious one (Mea Culpa!). Yep you guys broke that down well.

3) Do a drill where we start out with 2 distraction close to the starting point and farther apart and gradually move the distractions out and closer to the line to the blind.

4) Don't repeat the work in the same spot.

5) Paul you gave me a drill to work on.

Does that sum it up? Did I catch this.

Yep when the dog is failing its the trainers fault. Simplify for success. I knew you guys would straighten me out!

Anyone else or any other suggestions?

Thanks

 

1) For starters I guess the consensus is don't repeat. OK.

(I don't understand that one, but I will not repeat from the same location...anyone care to explain why no repeat??? My way of thinking was that it would give the dog confidence in that he would know where the blind was now since he has run it and he would drive past the distractions i.e. the hay bales and it would give him confidence to drive past distractions...but then that's why I'm an amatuer and you guys are pro's and remember this my first dog. He's teaching me way more than I'm teaching him.)

Another way of saying what Kristie said:

Your conclusion (in bold) is faulty because, once you have run the blind the dog knows where it is, thus the bales are no longer distractions.

The dog will probably ace it the second or third time, but you are not accomplishing anything (not even confidence ;-)) because you have removed the distractions when you showed him where the blind is the first time. He is not running past distractions anymore.

Take the advice you have been given, be patient, advance in baby steps and you will get there. When you get frustrated, remember this is a whole new process to the dog. Right now he's trying to find the bird ... that's what he's always been taught to do.

Blinds are not about him finding the bird ... they're about taking direction from you. So helping him learn and understand that takes a while.

JS

 

some failures are the dog's responsilibility -- that's where we can fairly use pressure

we don't repeat blinds because they give a FALSE sense of confidence. Dog is only going because it KNOWS the destination. The whole point of what you're doing is to teach the dog to have confidence in UNKNOWN destinations and to follow your instructions.

repeating blinds is generally useless in accomplishing your long-term goals. There are things we do repeat, like pattern blinds, but only for a short period of time and only for a completely different purpose (in the case of pattern blinds -- go, stop, come and change direction). Once the dog have those basics down, it's time to build confidence and performance in COLD situations. And the only way to do that is in COLD situations... And it takes a lot of time versus the 7-10 days to the end of a drill that we're used to in basic training. Hope that makes sense.

 

One more thing! Throw as many marks in that hay bale field as you can.
It will help your blinds, trust me!
Greg Magee

 

I have seen keyholes in Finished tests, too.

 

I don't understand what is wrong with a keyhole blind for a master dog.

Blinds are run to demonstrate control. If you don't have control of the dog you may lose him and fail the blind.

But how is a keyhole blind different than not being able to get him into the water or through the cover or any other obstacle that is on the line to the blind? In any case, you're not doing the test if you avoid the obstacle (don't demonstrate control).

The only difference is that it is obvious to everyone in a keyhole blind ... you know it's over. In the other cases, you should know it's over but you have time to sit around and hope the judges won't pencil you out.

???

JS

 

Ok I understand. I guess sometimes you have to step back and analyze. Yep after hearing you guys it makes perfect sense. The obstacles aren't obstacles anymore once the dog knows where the blind is. So we shall move around in the field a bit and utilize the hay bales while they are there and use the drills you guys have described.

I think I'll try placing distractions up closer and off the line and move them in till I get the desired results. Great discussion guys.

The dog has been titled SH and is really awesome but now it's time to really dig in. We hope to make an MH out of him.

As far as the MH test and key hole blinds. Heck I don't make the tests up I just train to pass them. I hope the dog and trainer are up to the challenge. I'm pretty sure the dog is...

 

To possibly misquote Woody Thurman, " Lighten up open up shorten up". Lighten up on the pressure, open up by spreading the blinds out and shorten up by starting the blinds closer to the hay bales.

 

Got it Bob. Thanks! Sage advice!

 

I have a SH dog and have been running more and more complicated set up for the dog in prep for a run at MH next fall or perhaps this spring.

It became a handling war and I finally won but it about took the stuffing out of the dog doing it. I mean it was ugly. He decided that the blind was at those bales and would not go past that wall. Total confusion is what it appeared to me.

.... I also need to work on driving him past obstacles more.

Thoughts or comments are certainly apppreciated r if you guys could recommend a drill I would appreciate that.

I've seen this before as people try to make the Senior to Master jump. As you said "need to work on driving him past obstacles". Most SH level dogs have little or no experience driving 250 yds thru anything.
I would not try to build this skills with blinds.
In the same concept start your dog running multiple marks at tight proximity to one another at 80, 125 then 250+. To the point that you get that 250 yds worth of drive thru that "keyhole" of bales, previous falls, between 2 guns etc. Once he is proficient(in a variety of settings) at driving to these known distant destinations of this complexity then try for the blind with the use of his handling skills.
JMO

Tim

 

Good point a couple of the guys made about making sure your dog has seen these things as marks first... I like to introduce most concepts as marks first, as early as the dog can handle them. So I'll have young dogs and some older puppies running simple marks by haybales, etc. exposed gun stations, no other factors, that type of thing.

Make sure your dog is used to haybales, period, before you ask too much. It sounds like he WAS, though, as you mentioned you had put blinds AT the bales. So i'm going to guess you HAVE run some marks through them too...

-K

 

Yes I have run lots of marks through the bales. We often use then as the blind for a retired gun...but what is different is there are usually maybe a dozen or so scattered in a 10 -20 acre field ( I'm not good at estimating acreage but the fields aren't real small but not incredibly huge either)...but now since they have mown the fields there are perhaps 40 or more big round bale. Perhaps a good chance to add some confusion to our marks. As far as distance. We run some pretty long marks on the field. We do have other fields we train in as well but with all the hay bales perhas we should be utilizing the field bales more for all the obstacles it now has in it.


Good suggestions everyone!

 

So that we’re on the same page, what you’ve described sound like fairly loose slots. They represent a type of “keyhole” blind, but if you want to understand the treatment you should understand the ailment. Distance made those slots look much tighter to your dog.

Dogs universally flare slots – even loose ones. There are actually two influences that cause that to happen. One is the slot itself because dogs sense pressure in slots; the tighter and further away the slot is, the more they will flare them Your problem began on the very first exposure because you arranged your slot to be 100 yards out. I’ll get to the treatment in a moment.

But the second influence of slots that causes flare is an all too common tendency of dogs to turn corners, and each side of the slot represents a corner, like many natural terrain features, as well as gun stations in the right arrangement. A dog will be en route to a blind and pass a prominent feature with open space behind it to one side or another, and they’ll simply turn the corner. They’ll do it even more if the wind is right.

I would tend to train on it a lot. I think you chose a very fine concept to train on. You just need to apply the training differently.

First, I love Kristie’s suggestion to run marks through your slots numerous times in different set ups to get the dog comfortable - first with slots, and then with slots created by bales. I would spend several training days doing that prior to setting up blind drills that focus on slot training.

When you get to the blind work there are two very good drills to start with:

Chair drills

KRD (Key Relationship Drill)

NOTE: blind 3 is a “keyhole” blind

There are several others. Just prior to starting on these more focused full scale drills, I think you would do well to run 16-bumper Wagon Wheel Lining drill for two or three days to tune him up on slots. Then go to work on your full-scale fieldwork.

Are you familiar with these drills?

BTW, there is absolutely nothing wrong with presenting this concept to any retriever SH and up, in my opinion. The determining factor should be degree of difficulty in presentation; how far, how tight, etc. You mentioned your first one had bales “within 30 or 40 yards of the line on both sides at about 100 yards.” At 100 yards they looked more like 30 feet apart than 30 yards. That’s why your dog lost momentum. He wasn’t confused. He was merely under-prepared. Now he won’t be!

Evan

 

Evan:

First off thanks!

Ok. We have worked on the wagon wheel. When he was young right before the TT ( yeah I know kind of out of order but it was my first dog and we did get through that inspite of that) then right before and during taught blinds in preparation for cold blinds. I feel certain he has the concept down but if you say revisit it we will. I can't see it doing anything but help reinforce a strong straight line.

My mentor is a former pro named Joh Broucek. He had me do something with the 16 station wagon wheel which I feel really helps to teach a line and in fact might actually reinforce what I am teaching here. On his wagon wheel we have every other pile of bumpers (8 piles of 4 or so bumpers) at about 25 yards then you put out 8 more stations inbetween those stations at the edge of the field ( no matter how large the field is some of them are at 75 yards some are as far as 150 or slightly more yards). We always use the same location for the wagon wheel. In this way the dog must run past the shorter bumpers when lined to the longer ones.

But in any event Evan we will revisit for a couple of sessions as a tune up. I was thinking about that anyway.

As far as the drills (chair drill and key relation drill) no I haven't done these drills but will although the blind set up I described to you was very similar to the setup for the key relation drill you show, although the distances for #3 and #2 were about 250 for 3 and about 150 for 2 and the mark was a poison bird instead, which he watched thrown then was pulled off and was sent to 3 first then 2 then 1.

Perhaps we will change the order and shorten the distance and leave the mark as a mark and not a poison bird. The poison bird concept hasn't caused us near the trouble I thought it would, it's funny the things you think will be darn near impossible sometimes aren't and the things I think will be fairly simple are near insurmountable.

Thank You Evan!

On my next pup I plan to use the smartworks system. Thanks Again!!

 

all PB"s are NOT created equal!!!!!!! don't get too complacent......

i think you could have easily salvaged the situation if you had applied attrition on that blind after moving yourself half the distance to the dog. when you're diggin' a hole, STOP DIGGIN'! i also would have immediately set up a shorter, wider version of this blind to give the dog success. the contrast between failure and success is a great teaching tool!

remember to move up next time, THEN take the time to analyze why things went south. -PAUL