[tzappia]

Im curious: Are we trying to turn our dogs into humans? I kinda think so. And I'm somewhat guilty as mine sleep wherever they want to sleep on in the house, I talk to them like I speak with other members of the house, sometimes play with them like I would play with children and, to be quite honest - I'm probably more afectionate with them than I am with many folks whom I associate with. But that said, and getting back to this Thread, I just don't see where in the last 60 years of kibble manufacturing we think it's appropriate to turn our dogs into cereal eaters. For example: look at their teeth: unlike our molars that are flat for grinding grains, a dog's back teeth are shaped like razors. In fact their entire tooth structure is designed to rip and tear apart meat and to grind and snap bones. Their jaws are unlike ours: A dog cannot move its' jaw from side to side. A grain eater has sideway motion to their jaw to grind. A dog's jaw is designed as a big hinge in order to take large chunks of meat. Let's compare a dog's pH level to a humans: A dog's pH level is about 1 while ours is between 4/5. That highly acid kills most of the bacteria found in less-than-fresh consumables. It also helps digest bits of bone. Now, I'm not turning my nose up to dry kibble as my dogs in training all eat kibble that I select and drop ship to each pro. I do rotate brands of kibble with my dogs, and for the record I use Fromm, Dr. Tim's, Orijen and Nature's Variety. However, when my dogs are home they get the Zappia Royal Treatment feeding program of fresh meats, veggies, etc. No kibble. Now, I'm not a research scientist, like a number of RTF members, but I am (somewhat) bright enough to notice big differences in the two nutrition programs. I have a 7 year old Golden who is affected by Ichthyosis - a skin condition that resembles large flakes of dandruff. When she was eating kibble, I could not control the flakes. After I have switched her to a RAW diet, I cannot find a hint of a flake on her. Moreover, her coat is silky smooth, I have no more ear issues and her breath is fresh and teeth are immaculate. But, these are just simple observations from a simple dog owner and not a research scientist. I also have a very spry 14 year old golden who is on the same diet and is doing quite well. Don't know if it's the diet or plain luck.... or maybe a little of both. TZ

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Im curious: Are we trying to turn our dogs into humans? I kinda think so. And I'm somewhat guilty as mine sleep wherever they want to sleep on in the house, I talk to them like I speak with other members of the house, sometimes play with them like I would play with children and, to be quite honest - I'm probably more afectionate with them than I am with many folks whom I associate with. But that said, and getting back to this Thread, I just don't see where in the last 60 years of kibble manufacturing we think it's appropriate to turn our dogs into cereal eaters. For example: look at their teeth: unlike our molars that are flat for grinding grains, a dog's back teeth are shaped like razors. In fact their entire tooth structure is designed to rip and tear apart meat and to grind and snap bones. Their jaws are unlike ours: A dog cannot move its' jaw from side to side. A grain eater has sideway motion to their jaw to grind. A dog's jaw is designed as a big hinge in order to take large chunks of meat. Let's compare a dog's pH level to a humans: A dog's pH level is about 1 while ours is between 4/5. That highly acid kills most of the bacteria found in less-than-fresh consumables. It also helps digest bits of bone. Now, I'm not turning my nose up to dry kibble as my dogs in training all eat kibble that I select and drop ship to each pro. I do rotate brands of kibble with my dogs, and for the record I use Fromm, Dr. Tim's, Orijen and Nature's Variety. However, when my dogs are home they get the Zappia Royal Treatment feeding program of fresh meats, veggies, etc. No kibble. Now, I'm not a research scientist, like a number of RTF members, but I am (somewhat) bright enough to notice big differences in the two nutrition programs. I have a 7 year old Golden who is affected by Ichthyosis - a skin condition that resembles large flakes of dandruff. When she was eating kibble, I could not control the flakes. After I have switched her to a RAW diet, I cannot find a hint of a flake on her. Moreover, her coat is silky smooth, I have no more ear issues and her breath is fresh and teeth are immaculate. But, these are just simple observations from a simple dog owner and not a research scientist. I also have a very spry 14 year old golden who is on the same diet and is doing quite well. Don't know if it's the diet or plain luck.... or maybe a little of both. TZ

To each own his as I said earlier. Like Dennis says "my dog better than yours"" Could be the genes, could be anything? And it is an opinion from each of us. I think my own fellows are great on dog food and look great, with a great deal of energy.JMHO

 

[kona's mom]

I switched over to Raw 4 months ago because of the increase in cost of the kibble I was feeding.. I have my 2 oldest on it and am now spending less than I did on kibble per month for them. I feed vension along with beef pork and poultry on a regular basis.Most of the meats I feed are sourced all organic . It can be done if you take the time to research and know where to shop..That being said, I still don't know if I would feed to a dog under the age of 1

 

[tzappia]

I switched over to Raw 4 months ago because of the increase in cost of the kibble I was feeding.. I have my 2 oldest on it and am now spending less than I did on kibble per month for them. I feed vension along with beef pork and poultry on a regular basis.Most of the meats I feed are sourced all organic . It can be done if you take the time to research and know where to shop..That being said, I still don't know if I would feed to a dog under the age of 1

My RAW costs equate to approximately $1.50/pound.

 

[Pam Spears]

I have done raw, home cooked, and kibble, and currently all 3 are on kibble. Not a nutritionist, either, but I've managed not to kill my husband or my children so far attempting to provide a balanced diet. Why do we agonize over feeding the perfect diet to our dogs when we don't worry about it so much with our own nutrition?

One thing I noticed with our raw fed dog: his teeth were immaculate, gleaming white with no tarter whatsoever. Now that he's back on kibble and has been for a year, the tarter is coming back. Just one part of the equation, but cleaner teeth were quite obvious in our little home experiment.

 

[krakadawn]

Im curious: Are we trying to turn our dogs into humans? I kinda think so. And I'm somewhat guilty as mine sleep wherever they want to sleep on in the house, I talk to them like I speak with other members of the house, sometimes play with them like I would play with children and, to be quite honest - I'm probably more afectionate with them than I am with many folks whom I associate with. But that said, and getting back to this Thread, I just don't see where in the last 60 years of kibble manufacturing we think it's appropriate to turn our dogs into cereal eaters. For example: look at their teeth: unlike our molars that are flat for grinding grains, a dog's back teeth are shaped like razors. In fact their entire tooth structure is designed to rip and tear apart meat and to grind and snap bones. Their jaws are unlike ours: A dog cannot move its' jaw from side to side. A grain eater has sideway motion to their jaw to grind. A dog's jaw is designed as a big hinge in order to take large chunks of meat. Let's compare a dog's pH level to a humans: A dog's pH level is about 1 while ours is between 4/5. That highly acid kills most of the bacteria found in less-than-fresh consumables. It also helps digest bits of bone. Now, I'm not turning my nose up to dry kibble as my dogs in training all eat kibble that I select and drop ship to each pro. I do rotate brands of kibble with my dogs, and for the record I use Fromm, Dr. Tim's, Orijen and Nature's Variety. However, when my dogs are home they get the Zappia Royal Treatment feeding program of fresh meats, veggies, etc. No kibble. Now, I'm not a research scientist, like a number of RTF members, but I am (somewhat) bright enough to notice big differences in the two nutrition programs. I have a 7 year old Golden who is affected by Ichthyosis - a skin condition that resembles large flakes of dandruff. When she was eating kibble, I could not control the flakes. After I have switched her to a RAW diet, I cannot find a hint of a flake on her. Moreover, her coat is silky smooth, I have no more ear issues and her breath is fresh and teeth are immaculate. But, these are just simple observations from a simple dog owner and not a research scientist. I also have a very spry 14 year old golden who is on the same diet and is doing quite well. Don't know if it's the diet or plain luck.... or maybe a little of both. TZ

Tony, there is an old saying that goes....'What works......works'! Although we are not nutritional scientists here, many of us have some observational data that is worth something. It's obviously working for you.

Do we have the definitive answer???? Who knows. What is important to me though as I read your comments is clearly the high level of care that you provide.
Too bad this was not as common as some of us would like to think.

I too have fed raw over many years and had good results from my perspective. That said they are on PP currently and are very healthy as well. I really believe we'll be into a 'null' hypothesis/results here regarding this issue.

Jim

 

[crackerd]

Kraka, old friend, have you implored our unimpeachable source "yellow dog" to weigh in here? No, heaven forfend, please, don't... - but another perspective would come from the "the medicine man" in sled dog circles, Dr. Arleigh Reynolds. Didn't read this entire thread to see if anyone else has cited Dr. Reynolds, but here's an older article outlining an idea that I subscribe to - supplemental raw feeding - for retrieving gundogs if not mushing dogs. Of course, I also feed my dogs (top-dressing) canine caviar - which would be deer entrails. Like Tony (and many here) I have only empirical evidence of benefits - but they look pretty good to me after years of scarfing down lungs and deer "green tripe." (OK, some of the liver and heart too - but that's more my bailiwick...)

And in reply to Tony's "Turkey neck Thursdays" mine have "Chicken backs daily" (from the Amish butcher) - unless snow goose carcasses are available. And no, they don't sprout white feathers nor try to fly, nor

eat a goose en route back with a retrieve. Just as they don't chase deer because they've eaten venison or some semblance or appendage thereof -

they're way too old for that, anyhow - and as with Tony's 14-year-old golden, I'm thinking the supplemental raw diet has played a pretty darn decent part in getting them "good and old."

MG

 

[DL]

The raw feeding crowd had always relied upon the "evolutionary argument", meaning dogs and wolves were so closely related that a raw diet was the only thing they should eat. A few years back the esteemed Uppsala University did a study that proved this was totally incorrect and that dogs have a very different genetic make-up and in fact carbohydrates and cooked meat and grain was their ancestral diet.

http://www.nature.com/news/dog-s-dinner-was-key-to-domestication-1.12280

There is more proof that kibble is more closely related to what dogs ate than prey.

When it comes to cooked versus raw protein, there is no question cooked protein is more digestible than raw protein because heat unbundles the protein molecule. In eggs for example, raw egg protein is about 25% digestible while cooked egg is over 90% digestible.

Human evolution really advanced quickly when people learned to cook food because it was more digestible.

Did you think Biology class was hard, jk? As far as grains go, I don't think grains go back very far in history. From what I read, modern humans evolved long before civilization and farming. I think it is something like at least 120,000 years ago, and cultivation of grains is like 5,000 years ago.

p.s. I read the article more closely and did some googling and understand the point. I just think the part which says dogs and humans evolved together to be able to eat start is dumb. It is more like dogs were further domesticated to be able to eat starch. Humans must have had a pretty good ability to digest starches from way back because humans are not domesticated. Humans do the domesticating by definition. I don't think some people were dying out at the dawn of civilization because they couldn't eat bread. One more note, all this gluten free stuff and the paleo diet craze is about people not being able to digest starches well. First domestication of wheat was in southeastern Turkey 7,500 - 7300 B.C.

 

[tzappia]

The difference between Whole Foods vs. Processed Foods.....

 

[Mike Sale]

I have a GSD that I used to train for shutzhund. I was in a training group with 3 litermates to my dog, from age 7 wks up until they were 7mos. old. The breeder fed raw, his 2 puppies looked so much better than the other 2 , They put on a lot more weight and their coats were noticeably more red and shiny. Then my other buddy switched and in no time his pup followed suit with the others. They made it sound very difficult to me so I didn't do it , But I will say their dogs definitely looked much better than mine. I feed my labs PP and grain free kibble for the GSD as she developed yeast issues and is still skinny no matter how much I feed. I would 've fed her raw if it wouldn't have been so much more labor intensive. lol

 

[tzappia]

I have a GSD that I used to train for shutzhund. I was in a training group with 3 litermates to my dog, from age 7 wks up until they were 7mos. old. The breeder fed raw, his 2 puppies looked so much better than the other 2 , They put on a lot more weight and their coats were noticeably more red and shiny. Then my other buddy switched and in no time his pup followed suit with the others. They made it sound very difficult to me so I didn't do it , But I will say their dogs definitely looked much better than mine. I feed my labs PP and grain free kibble for the GSD as she developed yeast issues and is still skinny no matter how much I feed. I would 've fed her raw if it wouldn't have been so much more labor intensive. lol

Mike, Interesting you brought up the gaining of weight. When I first changed over to feeding raw my dogs put on weight and I had to really cut back.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

I'd just add to crackreds point about supplemental feeding, and also to tzappias post above.

I feed mine with the "best" kibble that money can buy, but in a hard winter working four and five days a week, they lose condition. If I just add to the volume of their bagged feed it goes through them too quickly and poses problems with timing. Adding a pound of raw tripe to their diet is like switching on a light; they put on good weight (not plob round the belly) and obviously relish it. They also get raw ox heart and some beef bones. So in my experience the addition of RAW is a very positive move for a hard working dog.

It's also true that the ready prepared feedstock varies greatly in quality, at least in this country. So often I hear "My dog is allergic to product X" when the truth is that product X is a load of cheap crap.

EUg

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

I don't get the big deal, this is feeding dogs not Rocket science.

 

[RetrieversONLINE]

I don't get the big deal, this is feeding dogs not Rocket science.

Yeah! So it would seem until you realize Performance Retrievers ain't Rockets or Robots!

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

Right Dennis. Amazes me how many people, Pro's and Amateurs alike will swear by brand X then you see their husbandry is substandard.
They also do not use the product consistent with the labeling or directions.

 

[Jamee Strange]

Just curious, I worked in a grocery store in high school and one of the ladies used to come in a buy chicken gizzards that she fed to her lab. After a few months, she came in and we were talking about him and she said he almost died of pancreatitis from the raw chicken. Do those of you that feed RAW not have to worry about that? Or other medical side effects of feeding raw meat? I am not trying to say anything about RAW, I am just trying to feed my curiosity.

 

[tzappia]

Just curious, I worked in a grocery store in high school and one of the ladies used to come in a buy chicken gizzards that she fed to her lab. After a few months, she came in and we were talking about him and she said he almost died of pancreatitis from the raw chicken. Do those of you that feed RAW not have to worry about that? Or other medical side effects of feeding raw meat? I am not trying to say anything about RAW, I am just trying to feed my curiosity.

No. Not worried. I'm more concerned about feeding kibble...

 

[tzappia]

Yeah! So it would seem until you realize Performance Retrievers ain't Rockets or Robots!

Thanks Dennis. You beat me to the punch.

 

[Mike Sale]

Mike, Interesting you brought up the gaining of weight. When I first changed over to feeding raw my dogs put on weight and I had to really cut back.

Yes , That was the labor intensive part I was talking about. They had to weigh it all out and figure out how many ounces was the optimal amout to feed without getting the dogs fat. And since we had growing puppies it would constantly change. It would probably be a lot easier with a dog that was already fully grown. I'm just lazy and it's a lot easier to get it out of a bag ready to go. lol

 

[tzappia]

http://youtu.be/G3wLTlqnMMg