[Angie B]

Depends on the age of the dog. With those that can be a bit animated on line I'll step over. On my "Steady Eddies" I may re-heel...

I just hate a lot of movement on the line period.

Angie

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

And now I wonder, seeing the responses. If this is a field trial vs. hunt test thing? With the more point and shoot, no excessive lining mindset of the hunt test. In comparison to the true precision lining needed to win a trial.


.

 

[John Robinson]

I used to follow the Lardy program verbatum, you know if the bird is thrown to the right run the dog off the right side as a cue to stay on the right side of the gun. Having trained four dogs that way I have given up on it working that way at all, I have found that my better marking dogs ran to the bird regardless of what side they were sent from, and no amount of cueing was going to help my less spectacular markers stay in front of a gun through cover, terrain and diversion influence.

That said there are plenty of other good reasons to two-side heel your dog. Some examples; I sometimes find the need to block a flyer and will sit my dog accordingly, or quite often there is a narrow slot right off line that the dog needs to get, to get that good initial line to a memory mark or blind, but with the dog on my left and with me on the mat, it pushes the dog too far left to get the slot at the proper angle, if I heel him over on the right he is lined up perfect for the slot, also on a poison bird some people will sit their dog on one side for the poison bird, then swing the dog over to the other side with a "dead bird" cue to run the blind. These are just a few that come to mind.

I find it to be a valuable tool that comes in handy from time to time. That said just heeling off the left Ted has made a lot more field champions than I have.

John

 

[Pals]

I've taught my dogs two sided, however I am not good at lining them up on the right side. It feels awkward to me when they are on the right-it would have to be some pretty serious circumstances to run a blind from the right. Marks I am not as uncomfortable running from the right and do try to train on that a couple of times a month. It's a mute point right now since Ryder has been a total PIA the last two weeks and won't behave at all on the mat. I'm blaming the full moon we had.

 

[John Robinson]

And now I wonder, seeing the responses. If this is a field trial vs. hunt test thing? With the more point and shoot, no excessive lining mindset of the hunt test. In comparison to the true precision lining needed to win a trial.


.

Ken, I would say the majority of field trialers two side their dog, but as we see with Ted there is good success on both sides (forgive the pun).

 

[DarrinGreene]

Re-heel vs. Step over

You come to line with your dog, off lead. Dog comes to the mat/line/point of origin and sits when you stop walking. Dog is sitting perfectly for the task at hand. Just perfect, you could not improve it in any way. Yet as you stand you realize you would rather have the dog on your other side.
Will you-
A: Re-heel the dog onto your other side
Or
B: Step over or walk behind your dog letting it stay put.



.

One might have to argue that if the dog is on the wrong side, he can't possibly be sitting "perfectly for the task at hand"

 

[DarrinGreene]

And now I wonder, seeing the responses. If this is a field trial vs. hunt test thing? With the more point and shoot, no excessive lining mindset of the hunt test. In comparison to the true precision lining needed to win a trial.


.

What makes you think precision lining isn't a requirement to be consistently good in a hunt test Ken?

The better I get at it the better we seem to get as a team, regardless if training, hunt test or eventually in a trial.

Someone recently told me to run my memory marks like they were blinds... Best advice I've had in a while.

 

[BonMallari]

One might have to argue that if the dog is on the wrong side, he can't possibly be sitting "perfectly for the task at hand"

Good one Darrin

 

[YardleyLabs]

My orientation is for field trials and I would re-heel. Getting my dog locked on and lined up is generally not a big deal. If I move around her, her reaction will be such that I will need to re-heel anyway. While the most important issue is to let her see the mark clearly, she has been trained to take a hint from the side she in run from to decide which side of the gun to run toward on marks and whether to take water (or other obstacle) fat or thin on blinds. Hopefully she would do the job well whether run from the correct side or not, but I would rather take advantage of her training.

 

[brwndg/yelladawg]

Quote Ken Bora:
Sorry Doc,
In this day and age I wrongly assumed we all have two sided dogs.
Do you only use the pockets on one side of your trousers?


Well, I keep my wallet in the same pocket everytime. And yes, I have a one sided dog and we have worked on the step over if I ever need it to block her from cheating the bank on a water mark

 

[Rick_C]

What makes you think precision lining isn't a requirement to be consistently good in a hunt test Ken?

The better I get at it the better we seem to get as a team, regardless if training, hunt test or eventually in a trial.

Someone recently told me to run my memory marks like they were blinds... Best advice I've had in a while.

Could you elaborate on this?

 

[Guest]

A funny experience in regard to this exact thing...

I learned at a Mike Lardy workshop about stepping over a focused young dog when they happened to be on the wrong side. A few weeks or months later, I went to an Andy Attar workshop and stepped over the dog and virtually the entire gallery laughed at me -- not that I cared...

-K

 

[Ted Shih]

And now I wonder, seeing the responses. If this is a field trial vs. hunt test thing? With the more point and shoot, no excessive lining mindset of the hunt test. In comparison to the true precision lining needed to win a trial.

Ken

I think you have a misconception of what good handling on the mat for a marking test is. It is not about excessive lining. It is about the subtle influencing of dogs on the mat - where I think trials are won and lost

Consider the following three scenarios. Assume money retired bird is at 12 o'clock. Assume conditions comparable. Assume dogs are of equal quality. Any differences will be attributable to handler performance.

Scenario 1
Dog returns to mat. Left or right side, I don't care. Dog is aligned at 2 o'clock. Handler does not re-align. Handler lets it rip.

Scenario 2
Dog returns to mat. Left or right side, I don't care. Dog aligned at 2 pm. Hander fusses with dog to get the dog to move to 12 o'clock. When the dog is properly aligned, handler releases it.

Scenario 3
When dogs return to mat, hander subtly influences dog positioning so that when the dog sits, it is aligned at 12 o'clock. Handler lets dog settle into the mark, then once dog indicates it is ready to rock, releases it.

Which of these do you think is optimal?

I think no. 3. If you watch handlers, or judge handlers, and your experience is like mine, you soon discover that very few amateur handlers are able to accomplish no. 3.

To me, the really accomplished handlers are able to influence the dogs to sit in proper alignment without any muss or fuss. Because these handlers do not muss or fuss, the dogs are relaxed and able to focus on the task at hand.

To me, it is not about lining to a mark. It is about aligning your dog without his knowledge in order to optimize his ability to recall the mark.

If you tell me that you can accomplish no. 3 on both sides, more power to you.

However, I find that I am able to accomplish no. 3 - to my satisfaction - maybe 25% of the time

That's why I am still working on mastering the left side.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

A funny experience in regard to this exact thing...

I learned at a Mike Lardy workshop about stepping over a focused young dog when they happened to be on the wrong side. A few weeks or months later, I went to an Andy Attar workshop and stepped over the dog and virtually the entire gallery laughed at me -- not that I cared...

-K

That is Kinda sorta what inspired this poll. Because I train with different groups. And I am a step overer. I have gotten the feedback of “Good Job, just like at the seminar I was at.” And “Why are you moving, move the dog” depending upon whom I was training with at the time. So I wanted the “RTF” opinion. I try very hard to be two sided, have for always.

Ted,
I very much attempt to be ready for the memory bird. To have both feet pointed at the bird as the dog is coming back. To be at the back of the mat or off the mat behind it, in case I need that step forward to align. To have the arm down on the side I want the dog at.
I would say, in all honesty, I have achieved equal mediocrity, on both sides. Not perfection by any means. I thank you for your examples and I agree scenario number 3 is best. I learn so much from RTF, I think this was a good poll.
I think I need a second poll for the 2 sided folk. Can you run blind retrieves equally well from both sides?



.

 

[Ted Shih]

Ken

It was not my intention to pick at you.

A few thoughts:

1) I think it is better to be good at one side than mediocre at two sides.

2) I think most people would be better served by learning how to be good at one side before trying to run a dog on two sides

3) If you watch the really good handlers, there is an economy and fluidity to their movements. And they do not have a pattern set in stone. Rather they react to the dog as it is returning and based upon their reading of the dog, make decisions on how to influence the dog without the dog being aware of that influence. Their stance changes depending upon what the dog tells them. I think that is really the key to good handling on the marks, influencing - not forcing - the dogs on the marks

4) The key is learning to help the dog by influencing his behavior without his knowledge, so that the dog's natural abilities can be maximized. It's important to be a good jockey, but being a good jockey on the marks often means - if you have a good marking dog - making sure that you don't get in the dog's way

5) I think that if you want to be better at this, you need to be ruthless in your self assessment. There are very few of us who are as good as we think we are

Ted

 

[Bayou Magic]

Ken
...
Scenario 3
When dogs return to mat, hander subtly influences dog positioning so that when the dog sits, it is aligned at 12 o'clock. Handler lets dog settle into the mark, then once dog indicates it is ready to rock, releases it.
...
To me, the really accomplished handlers are able to influence the dogs to sit in proper alignment without any muss or fuss. Because these handlers do not muss or fuss, the dogs are relaxed and able to focus on the task at hand.

To me, it is not about lining to a mark. It is about aligning your dog without his knowledge in order to optimize his ability to recall the mark.

...

I agree with a lot of this, particularly with subtly assisting the dog when preparing to send for memory birds.

For me, two sided heeling is a valuable tool, one which I use from day one in training. The side, left or right, is not chosen solely based on the direction of the throw. The side is normally determined by the factors in the field. The side of choice, grounded in training, can have a dramatic influence on the picture presented to the dog. This can translate into subtly assisting the dog with a memory mark.

My cue for reminding the dog of a memory mark is a simple and low key verbal "find your mark" as the dog comes to my side when lining up for a memory mark. The side is predetermined by me, and hopefully the dog will settle in and lock on the location of the memory bird with NO help from me at all. If he is a few degrees off, I will tweak him on the line with as little movement and verbal cues as possible, and again leave it up to the dog to "find the mark" on his own, i.e. remember the correct location of the bird.

If the dog is completely clueless and for some reason I think heeling to the other side might be beneficial, the dog is given the verbal cue to switch sides. I will take two or three steps behind the mat, then approach the mat with the dog on the switched side. No stepping over the dog. We don't do it in training, so doing it in a trial would be presenting something the dog hasn't seen before. No need to rock the boat any more than necessary.

Just one persons way of doing things,
fp

 

[Doug Main]

I agree with a lot of this, particularly with subtly assisting the dog when preparing to send for memory birds.

For me, two sided heeling is a valuable tool, one which I use from day one in training. The side, left or right, is not chosen solely based on the direction of the throw. The side is normally determined by the factors in the field. The side of choice, grounded in training, can have a dramatic influence on the picture presented to the dog. This can translate into subtly assisting the dog with a memory mark.

My cue for reminding the dog of a memory mark is a simple and low key verbal "find your mark" as the dog comes to my side when lining up for a memory mark. The side is predetermined by me, and hopefully the dog will settle in and lock on the location of the memory bird with NO help from me at all. If he is a few degrees off, I will tweak him on the line with as little movement and verbal cues as possible, and again leave it up to the dog to "find the mark" on his own, i.e. remember the correct location of the bird.

If the dog is completely clueless and for some reason I think heeling to the other side might be beneficial, the dog is given the verbal cue to switch sides. I will take two or three steps behind the mat, then approach the mat with the dog on the switched side. No stepping over the dog. We don't do it in training, so doing it in a trial would be presenting something the dog hasn't seen before. No need to rock the boat any more than necessary.

Just one persons way of doing things,
fp

Now, I'm only a single sided guy. But, while judging, I've only seen handlers change sides if, as Frank states "the dog is completely clueless", as in won't look where the handler wants. Never have I seen a handler switch sides when the dog was lined up perfectly.

 

[Jeff Bartlett]

I Would Hope That I New What I Was Doing
Before I Got To The Line But If I Didn't I Might.
Start Over From Holding Blind

 

[greg magee]

Ken

It was not my intention to pick at you.

A few thoughts:

1) I think it is better to be good at one side than mediocre at two sides.

2) I think most people would be better served by learning how to be good at one side before trying to run a dog on two sides

3) If you watch the really good handlers, there is an economy and fluidity to their movements. And they do not have a pattern set in stone. Rather they react to the dog as it is returning and based upon their reading of the dog, make decisions on how to influence the dog without the dog being aware of that influence. Their stance changes depending upon what the dog tells them. I think that is really the key to good handling on the marks, influencing - not forcing - the dogs on the marks

4) The key is learning to help the dog by influencing his behavior without his knowledge, so that the dog's natural abilities can be maximized. It's important to be a good jockey, but being a good jockey on the marks often means - if you have a good marking dog - making sure that you don't get in the dog's way

5) I think that if you want to be better at this, you need to be ruthless in your self assessment. There are very few of us who are as good as we think we are

Ted

Ted, I'm curious if infact your pro/pro's are one sided handlers and you are just regurgitating what you have been told. Or are they 2 sided and you are developing you own style. I would bet the latter. Any handler that has done their fair share of lining drills should have no problems regardless of what side the dog is on. It is not really that hard. But thats for the true amateur handler and not the one who shows up to run his dog once a week. I could see people that don't much hands on time falling into the category you mentioned. But most pros where time is money prefer to keep it simple for their clients benifit and not the dogs. I personally am a two sided handler but I am not religious about it. Just another tool in the bag as far as I'm concerned. No big deal
As a judge the biggest mistake I see handlers make is not taking their time. regardless of the side. Pros do this as well, but usually only in the last series when they need a different dog to get a win that week.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Ken

It was not my intention to pick at you.

A few thoughts:

No fear Ted,
Did not get that impression at all. More like I am the kid raising my hand,
So that all the students may learn from the answers. Thank You.



ps- the poll is very close
.