[1_way_out]

I have a 16 week old puppy and I’m following Hillman’s puppy video. He knows sit so I’m trying to reinforce it with a verbal “sit” and lifting up on the rope. When I do that he barks, bites the rope, then rolls over on his back and the lesson is lost. I’m not jerking on the rope - just lifting up on it. He’s been wearing a collar and dragging a rope since he was 8 weeks old so the rope and collar are not new to him. I realize he’s just a baby so I’m not being hard on him but rather trying to teach him what I want him to do. Is there something else I should try to reinforce the sit command or just stick with it until he figures it out?

 

[Tobias]

try a lighter correction if the amount of 'pressure' you are applying is resulting in unwanted behavior..... Find the least amount of 'pressure' you can use to get the proper response. I would use food rewards every time he responds correctly 'good' or 'yes' and then treat.

I am working with a young dog that was sent to a trainer for some obedience work. Whoever did the training really put some pretty good pinch collar pressure on her and she would bolt/lay down at a light 'snap' on her flat collar. I resolved the problem by starting with 'sit' --- dog sitting in front of me, very light quick snap with the command 'sit', praise, treat.... repeat, gradually increasing the pressure and reward only for the correct response. Several days later she understood that the pressure on the collar was not the end of the world, and in fact, could result in good things happening. Her attitude is really happy now, vs tail between her legs and fearful to make a wrong step.

 

[KwickLabs]

"I have a 16 week old puppy and I’m following Hillmann’s puppy video. He knows sit so I’m trying to reinforce
it with a verbal sit and lifting up on the rope".

Keep in mind the very slight tug should be after the pup is sitting and laced with a "good" verbal reward.
The tugs are not making him sit. Right now he does not know sit.

My last two pups were trained using Hillmann's program.

"When I do that he barks, bites the rope, then rolls over on his back and the lesson is lost."

Without actually seeing what "lifting up on the rope" looks like and how/when you say "sit" it would be difficult
to surmize what you need to do. Keep in mind at 4 months your pup is just beginning to learn what sit means.

Too repeat, the rope is supposed to be just a slight tug reinforcing a sit the puppy is all ready doing.....up
close. A video of you and your pup working together would provide a more accurate perspective.

The first pup in the following video is very young. Observe when the tugs are being applied. This is not
a first session for the pup. note: The pup is receiving slight tugs after already being on a sit (very close).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=4lM1J7zZxFo&feature=emb_logo

 

[Swampdoc]

My 5 month old Chessie is being trained using Hillman's method and the first couple of months he would bit and fight the rope as well. He stopped this within the last couple of weeks, like the others said, just light tugs - its meant as a reminder like the bell and the Pavlovian dogs, they react to it but they aren't sure why. Its not a jerk to force them into a sitting position. If he's hesitant, then use your hand, a healing stick or switch to a prong collar for a couple weeks (worked well for me) to get a quicker response to the command. I tried the "no bite" and "leave it" commands that we use in the house to no avail, and it was sure frustrating. But something Bill says that I have since reminded myself daily is "He's just a puppy, every day is his best day, he has done no wrong in his short existence on this earth" (or something to that effect.) Thinking of it that way keeps me from becoming angry or frustrated. Every pup I've trained did this (my Chessie was worse than any of my labs with it). He'll accept that he is not in control and grow out of it, just keep at it and don't get upset.

 

[KwickLabs]

"to get a quicker response to the command"

The quote provides the key to understanding Hillmann's use of the slight tug.

Initially the word "sit" means the same thing as "good" because they are said ONLY when the pup
is sitting. How does the pup get into the sit position? The usual method is to keep the pup close
by bending over and physically pushing down on his butt while imprinting the "sit" (word). It is not a
command (yet) because this must be done often enough to display the action and establish "good"
as the reward.

If the push down is timed well with the slight lifting of the rope, the two actions become chained.
Timing is your friend. You are NOT necessarily looking for a quicker response by lifting up on the
rope. What you seek is to have the slight tug and the verbal good mean the same thing. Too repeat,
you are NOT ready for a correction until the conditioned response is in place. During this time the
rewards need to be inserted and developed.

The two most pertinent rewards in this time frame are saying "good" and providing a "slight tug" at
the same time. They mean the same thing. (slight tug = good) NOT A CORRECTION

The next thing to do is coordinate the collar application. This where most "loose it". A very low "nick"
(used properly) can say "good" to the dog. That's why you see Hillmann say "sit" nick "sit". The "nick"
and the slight tug mean the same thing (good). Again this is done only when the pup is actually sitting.

When initially teaching a skill, there are no corrections.

From what I can gather in most threads about HIllmann is the inexperienced trainer has a great
deal of difficulty in avoiding the rush to corrections. This because it takes a very experienced trainer
to teach the difference between a collar correction vs. saying "good" (with it).

All of the above becomes even more complicate when attempting to salvage the process with a
heeling stick or actual collar corrections. That is not an easy "row to hoe" for an inexperienced
trainer. I cringe when hearing a novice post that they will follow Hillmann's process early on and
then switch to "something else....soon".

If a heeling stick or prong collar become a device of choice, they tend to thrust a trainer into
correction modes or place the decision of how to respond on to the dog. You can't just simply
slide them into Hillmann's approach without a seamless plan.

 

[Swampdoc]

"to get a quicker response to the command"

The quote provides the key to understanding Hillmann's use of the slight tug.

Initially the word "sit" means the same thing as "good" because they are said ONLY when the pup
is sitting. How does the pup get into the sit position? The usual method is to keep the pup close
by bending over and physically pushing down on his butt while imprinting the "sit" (word). It is not a
command (yet) because this must be done often enough to display the action and establish "good"
as the reward.

If the push down is timed well with the slight lifting of the rope, the two actions become chained.
Timing is your friend. You are NOT necessarily looking for a quicker response by lifting up on the
rope. What you seek is to have the slight tug and the verbal good mean the same thing. Too repeat,
you are NOT ready for a correction until the conditioned response is in place. During this time the
rewards need to be inserted and developed.

The two most pertinent rewards in this time frame are saying "good" and providing a "slight tug" at
the same time. They mean the same thing. (slight tug = good) NOT A CORRECTION

The next thing to do is coordinate the collar application. This where most "loose it". A very low "nick"
(used properly) can say "good" to the dog. That's why you see Hillmann say "sit" nick "sit". The "nick"
and the slight tug mean the same thing (good). Again this is done only when the pup is actually sitting.

When initially teaching a skill, there are no corrections.

From what I can gather in most threads about HIllmann is the inexperienced trainer has a great
deal of difficulty in avoiding the rush to corrections. This because it takes a very experienced trainer
to teach the difference between a collar correction vs. saying "good" (with it).

All of the above becomes even more complicate when attempting to salvage the process with a
heeling stick or actual collar corrections. That is not an easy "row to hoe" for an inexperienced
trainer. I cringe when hearing a novice post that they will follow Hillmann's process early on and
then switch to "something else....soon".

If a heeling stick or prong collar become a device of choice, they tend to thrust a trainer into
correction modes or place the decision of how to respond on to the dog. You can't just simply
slide them into Hillmann's approach without a seamless plan.

Very good post here. Much appreciated. My prong collar comment was made because I discovered the “response time” benefit by accident. I switched to a prong collar for walks and when in public because he would just pull against the rope and choke and gag. I used the prong collar and it immediate corrected his determination to pull against the rope. I said sit to him when another dog was walking by and his butt shot down. I used it for a week in training, keeping the tugs as just very light as with the rope but he responded almost instantly. I have since moved back to the rope. I didn’t mean for my suggestions to imply that a prong or healing stick were to be used with any more force than a slight tug or a tap, and certainly not as a correction. The tap of a stick could very well take the place of a tug, a nick, or a “good.” I fully admit it could be out of the scope of what Hillman teaches, but is just something I have used in the past for different issues on occasion. 100% agree that reinforcement is the key with his approach.

 

[KwickLabs]

"I used the prong collar and it immediate corrected his determination to pull against the rope."

It will definitely do just that.

"I switched to a prong collar for walks and when in public because he would just pull against the rope
and choke and gag. I used the prong collar and it immediate corrected his determination to pull against
the rope. I said sit to him when another dog was walking by and his butt shot down."

That is somewhat how they work. Except that is not how a dog should be introduced to a prong collar.
You skipped the teaching/introduction process and went directly to the distraction phase.

The last phase of teaching a skill set is distraction proofing. You went to the park and altered the teaching
phase by inserting the prong collar. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the prong collar. The
problem is you were working a program and decided to go off course by skipping the introduction.

The "choke and gag" incident is simply proceeding too rapidly into the distraction proofing phase. The
key to excellent training is to make each step seamless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

 

[Swampdoc]

"I used the prong collar and it immediate corrected his determination to pull against the rope."

It will definitely do just that.

"I switched to a prong collar for walks and when in public because he would just pull against the rope
and choke and gag. I used the prong collar and it immediate corrected his determination to pull against
the rope. I said sit to him when another dog was walking by and his butt shot down."

That is somewhat how they work. Except that is not how a dog should be introduced to a prong collar.
You skipped the teaching/introduction process and went directly to the distraction phase.

The last phase of teaching a skill set is distraction proofing. You went to the park and altered the teaching
phase by inserting the prong collar. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the prong collar. The
problem is you were working a program and decided to go off course by skipping the introduction.

The "choke and gag" incident is simply proceeding too rapidly into the distraction proofing phase. The
key to excellent traning is to make each step seamless.

With all due respect you are making a few assumptions here that aren’t true. Maybe it was my fault for not including all the details but I certainly did not throw the prong collar on for the first time at the park. I introduced it to him in the morning when going out for his potty break and letting him get used to wearing it, what the pressure felt like and how its”turned off.” I did this for nearly a 3 weeks before we put it into action. Maybe that wasn’t long enough, maybe it was, but he certainly was introduced to it before hand. This was never intended to be used as a tool in his retriever training, in the beginning, just merely for social conduct and safety reasons. The “immediate” response was in reference to the first walk with the prong collar, it was fixed. It didn’t take months and dozens of walks to figure out not to fight or pull against the rope when excited. He pulled once, knew how to turn it off, and didn’t pull again. As for the “choke and gag” I was merely following Hillman’s “raising a retriever puppy” where he encouraged socializing the pup early on, and with Chessie’s that is crucial from day one. If Hillman mentioned that his new puppy had been fully conditioned to walking around major distractions on a rope and did not require the occasional correction, then I must have missed it. And again, so no assumptions are made, he was not first introduced to a rope lead on his first outing in public. He had been walked on it during sessions at home and drug it around any time he was not kenneled. But none of the distractions at home compares to the distractions of a public area or a hardware store, and I wasn’t going to wait 3 months for him to be fully “rope” conditioned and never need a correction before we started socializing. I’m not a pro, never claimed to be, but I’m also not trying to push the process or jump ahead of any steps. This being my first Chessie, he picks up newer concepts much slower than my labs of the past, and I am ok with that.