I would say you need to take a closer look at your training setups. Answer also depends on the level of your dog. In the first scenario I would stop the dog when it starts losing momentum and before it starts hunting the blind. I would question your setup and see what you were trying to accomplish running that tight to a previous blind.

I would really question your setup in the second question. Why did you stop the dog 5 yards short of the blind? Did he see the bumper? Did he smell it? Wind direction? Generally if the dog smells it I just cast to it and finish the blind, but rarely does the dog smell or see the bumper 5 yards in front of it. Usually training blinds are down or cross wind making this scenario a bit unusual.

 

You never let a dog hunt on a blind retrieve in training.

You should intervene the moment you read the dog has made the wrong decision. Typically, if breaking down early, you not blow the whistle and just cast back with a verbal. If however, the dog changed direction (which I hope would be the case and you aren't running blinds directly over recent blinds), you'd stop and handle when the do deviated from the correct line.

For part 2 of your question, I assume the dog is looking at and recognizes the pile? If so, why did you stop him? If you are working on control at end, straighten him him, if you were a DAH, just cast him to the bird with no hands or whatever cast is appropriate.

 

Thanks. Here is a lengthy reply to both. My dog is learning but I am adding factors. I am also learning how to set them up, how to handle, etc... I try to set up at least three blinds and make them all at least 100 yards. I know about not running into the wind, but sometimes if the wind were low and the blind was short I might violate that. My dog is drawn to varying degrees to lining poles, mounds, hay bales and taking strips of cover, not to mention water but it is winter.

On this particular day, the first blind was directly in front of a hay bale (and a lining pole). I was right in front of a strip of cover (seemed like a good idea). He took the cover and veered right with a loopy sit (when I stopped him) which has developed recently (which I have begun to work on). He had veered hard right towards where I had planted a blind (in front of or beside another hay bale) twice before. I gave an angle back and he took the cast to the blind. It worked out well except I took note I have to do something about the slow loopy sit.

The second blind was in front of a telephone pole (and a lining pole) a short ways past a mound on the left. There is a side hill that makes it harder. The blind was through two strips of cover. I had run this exact same blind before at a slightly closer distance through only one strip of cover and he was pulled to the mound where I previously put the blind before (I have planted bumpers on top of different mounds once or twice, or beside them). When I ran this blind he took both pieces of cover, then started to veer to the mound. I had made up my mind I wasn't going to let that happen this time. I stopped him and gave him a right hand back which he took and went past the mound where the field basically ends and broke down. I blew the whistle and gave a silent right angle back and he gave me a right over. He ping ponged once or twice and ended up sitting facing a big white bumper and lining pole where he had been before previously. His sit was probably slow and he had lost momentum. This is apparently a hard blind for some reason maybe involving the slope of the land and a boundary. The wind was very light and we were probably running into it. I probably blew the whistle and he looked all around and set when he saw the bumper. That is probably the honest answer. His sit hasn't been slow until recently. I have to work on it.

The third blind was basically easy in my mind, but out past one hay bale (where I have planted bumpers before) to another hay bale where I haven't. He took a poor initial line wide right of both hay bales. I gave him a left angle back (or maybe it was a left straight up back) which he took perfectly and carried to the hay bale (where the previous blinds have been). He slowed and looked around and saw it wasn't there. I yelled back and he kept taking his line to the next hay bale where the blind was planted.

 

My post is probably confusing but it gives an idea of what I'm talking about.

 

Be careful about always doing the same type of concept i.e. placing The bumpers in front of hay bales or tree trunks or below drip lines -always mix it up and if you run field trials you will occasionally get a 2nd blind run exactly over the 1st blind-it's ok to honor your nose but it's always"go where I say go"

 

I'm thinking it isn't lack of effort.

 

Hard to tell where the dog is in its training. Still in transition? Or running cold blinds? Probably stuck in the middle with an inadequate foundation. I don't use lining poles, markers, or any of the other crutches. If the dog is still in transition some sight or walk around blinds etc., would make sense.

If the dog is thru transition just run blinds. Walk out to shorten if needed, otherwise if the dog stops, goes, and casts just keep working on it.
Find some other training grounds and teach the dog to handle and fight factors. Stop always running to the poles, bales, mounds etc.

 

I am using lining poles as a crutch because I am learning how to finish blinds with a come in whistle, and lead the dog with the whistle. I also kinda think it helps the dog learn to carry a cast. When I say lining poles, I mean an orange pole like you buy at LCS, or a black electric fence post. I really can't imagine not even using something as a guide to know where the blind is. That is kinda unrealistic. You have good advice. I have walk out blinds on the agenda. That is kinda a crutch also. Crutches are good sometimes.

 

if the blinds are 100 yds apart and he is so far off course that he ends up at a previous blind, you are letting him carry casts way to far before correcting the line. If he is ping ponging move up.. likewise above, hard to know without knowing the foundation

 

I totally failed in describing what I was talking about. 100 yards is my guide for trying not to make them too short. I need to get them out regularly to 200 yards but I'm not there yet. In these blinds they were spread out like a peace sign (120 degrees).

 

If you aren't yet to 200 yards, the dog is ping ponging, doesn't have a square sit, WHY are you adding factors?

Find someone near you that has FT experience plus an excellent blind running dog and ask them how to setup blinds and marks. Ask a pro and pay a day fee but seek out someone!!

 

There is excellent advice in this thread. It is a quirk of human nature that anyone who explains looks like an idiot, and anyone who acts dead certain but has it all wrong smells like roses. I don't really see how people get out to 200 yards without factors unless they live in Iowa or some place like that. I didn't say my dog couldn't run 200 yards. I imagine dogs ping pong at Field Trials. That's how they determine the winner?

 

Let's back WAY up here! Where are you at in training? What drills have you done? What is the dogs experience? and LOL what program , if any are you using?

 

First can I ask what I wrote that for lack of a better word is perplexing?

 

Here you go. Stop doing blinds until you read read the following and understand a bit more about blinds.
From the late John Cavanaugh. Take it for gospel. Questions are good.
.


BLIND RETRIEVE PRINCIPLES/ EARLY COLD BLINDS


Retrievers should respond quickly and eagerly to whistles and directions, meaning:
· Take the original line given
· Continue on that line
· Stop when commanded
· Take a new direction as given
· Continue on that line until bird is found

Blind retrieves should take advantage of natural distractions such as:
· Islands
· Points of land
· Sand bars
· Ditches
· Hedges
· Bushes
· Adjacent heavy cover
· Rolling terrain

EARLY COLD BLINDS

· Don't fiddle about precise lines - "kick-em -off"
· Walk behind dog, as he runs, keeping the dog near to you. When you blow sit whistle, he will find you close by (like the distance from you when learning basics)
· Rope is a good idea
· Multiple planted blinds with emergency options
· Mix side sends and remote casts
· Chairs, trees in foreground to distinguish lines
· Natural targets, like on Double “t” (trees, etc.)
· Avoid strong negating factors (Wind, Terrain, Cover)
· Avoid tight lines and cheating obstacles
· 3 peat to teach themes and concepts and build momentum

WATER
· Channels - Long axis of swim- by pond is a good place to start
· Floating, anchored bumpers in swimming water
· Cheating singles type pictures, but less cheaty.



LINING UP YOUR DOG / TACTICS AT LINE

Heel / Watching / Set-up Position

Consistency in this position is key to line / bird communication

Handler stands with both feet squarely pointed parallel to the line of the bird

Handler looks out at the next bird, not at the dog

Dog sits with near side front foot next to handler’s foot. Head by handler’s knee (visual contact)

Sitting squarely on four feet, pointing at the bird

No slumping on hip/ crouching / standing/ leaning on or away from handler.

Teaching dog to recognize and seek this position

Be precise and consistent with your stance and dog’s position

Use collar tab and heeling stick (gently)

Drills:
1. 1 / 3 /5 step heeling

1. Pivots in unison
2. One step heeling: forward, back and side
3. #2 + #3 above, but dog sit stays – handler moves away – calls dog into “here” / “heel” position

Lining Skills

Initial Lines


Conditioning dog to being called back/ no-no: Sit whistle and can’t return until you call in. Always stop dog. No auto recalls/ returns

Understanding and returning to heel position

Use of pull-tab and light stick

Slot and chair lining drills

Training group etiquette: do not try to converse with a handler who is working on lining up the dog


Lining Skills, Progression


· Line to visible bumper/ pile
· Line to known marker (tree, rock, etc.)
· Line to your choice of markers
· Relativity to markers (i.e. line between/ past chairs, trees, rocks, etc.) / slots
· Line tight past marker (past chair, tree, etc.)
· General acceptance of wherever you point/line them they will go there!!!!
· 3 peat lining progression drills


WATER BLINDS

Attention to:
· success ratio/ attitude / momentum / style
· control

Components: (vs running the single / big /complex water blind)
Entry, re-entry, stay in, up and out
3 – peats: repeating/emphasizing only one component per session

Attitude


Clear pictures and 3 – peats

Sometimes talk the dog through problems, not always wise to punish/correct

Concentrate on the concept/ less on the “line,” eg. fighting a cross wind, etc.

Control: No “blow-ups”. Slow down/stop then resume

Tune-up drills with a theme: entry / cut corners / re-entry/ run past –get in / parallel shore

Casting/voice

• Permission casts for water exits
• Silent casts for direction change/ stay in the water
• Loud voice for drive/ up and out

ADVANCED BLINDS


Effective Casting (Trial vs. Training)
· Anticipation / Planned approaches to and exits from Hazards
· Maintain standards in training (literal casts)
· Survival at the trial (momentum casts), if the first cast didn't work get more suggestive / emphatic (but keep your cool)

Rarely run a single complex water blind in training (too “pass / fail,” non-instructive)

Components / Tune-Up (Series) Approach/ 3-peats

Cold Drills, Ending in Successful Understanding
Examples for drills:
· Entries
· Re-Entries
· Cast into Water
· Stay-Ins
· Up & Outs
· Poison Birds
· Chair Drills
· Past / Over / Off Points
· Obstacles

Complexity of Blinds
· Diversions, poison birds
· Tight Lines/ Multiples Blinds
· Factors: Wind, Terrain, Cover, Distance,Shorelines, etc.
· Water entries

Typical Problems on Blinds
· Lack of solid basics
· Control at Distance (not stopping, not casting)
· Hunty Attitude
· Bugging
· Poor attitude/ style / momentum
· Mostly due to lack of experience or success



MODEL BLIND SET UP


Awareness of wind and all other factors / hazards (weather radio/compass)

Expected Successful / Intended outcomes

Strategies / Remedies Planned

Come to Line
· Line - up: side to send from, Push / Pull, use of Hands / Feet
· Importance of square stance

Initial Line
· Plan approach to/exit from Hazards

Handle Away from Hazards and Into Visibility
· Awareness of side dog turns to on whistle, relative to hazards

Momentum Preservation
· Allow to fight factors, even if off line. Re-orientation cast should be easy
· "Reading the Momentum Gauge": whistles, corrections and attrition run it down
· Don't let young dogs get into "deep holes": down wind, down hill, along shoreline
· Prevent trouble: Quick intervention, don't hope for dog to discover his error and re-gain his line

End Hazards
· Come-in whistle: downwind drift tendency

Attitude: cold blinds are mostly trained behavior, and a dog’s attitude can suffer from inappropriately high corrections ratio. Caution!

Instead, work on: Components of blinds. 3 peats/ Tune - up approach, non- conflicting, progressively successful outcomes

Solve acute problems (tune-up approach) with remedial drills before attempting more advanced blinds: (popping, sloppy whistle stops, etc. must be ironed-out first.)



REMEDIAL HANDLING SKILLS /WHISTLE SITS


Sharpen the skill in yard first

Do they understand that the whistle means “sit”? Quickly?

Teach with rope, then overlay E collar
· Recalls / sit (rope around remote post)
· Sit in route to thrown bumpers
· Sit in route to pile
· Remote sit/ steadiness drills

Stop to Pile drills: “line” type and “over” type

Obedience: lead and choke collar, then overlay E collar

Run with dog and snap sit with lead (Charles Morgan)

Bird-boy blinds, discuss

Don’t permit auto-casting

“Cemetery” blinds: opportunities to blow lots of whistles

Escape-type collar corrections

E collar on rump

Don’t compromise standards!

CONTROL AT LONG DISTANCE/ CASTING


Walk behind blinds

Long – distance wagon wheel casting

Remote handler / whistle blower

Use of swim-by / run-by at distance

Stop and cast over/ in’s on return

Emergency (against factors) blinds

Handle “all over the field” procedure (time-out from disobedience)

No auto-casting. Slow down the pace of the session

Remote Cast blinds (starting point requiring an angle cast, cast in to water)

Immediate whistle as info for cast refusal

Walking base-ball

Use “Here” after/ in place of toot-toot whistle on attrition/ recalls
Overlay toot-toot whistle with nick, then “Here”

Allow dog to get deep of blind, practice recall whistle

• punctuated toot… toot… toot whistle (vs. trilled whistle)

• note: down wind fade tendency on recall whistle

• teach disciplined recall whistle: “here” nick “here”… toot-toot whistle “here” nick “here”…toot-toot whistle nick “here”…toot-toot whistle. watch for effort on recall.

Direction changes:

• “Dog – leg” blinds
• Split back pile drill (as lining or remote casting)

 

Thanks, I'll read that over a few times. I understand more information is better. I'll just take it for what it is worth. Is there anything in particular that sounded crazy. I am guessing not.

 

Evan Graham has a video where his dog has little flags to point his way to the blind, is that what you saw?

 

A Marker/Pole at end of blind is for You not dog. As you gain experience you will use these less and less. Use markers dog is not likely to see. Stick a branch in ground, use orange tape. If you use a pole stick it in ground at a 45 angle not vertically.
Markers that are meant for the dog to See are mainly used in Lining Drills as a target.

 

What are your goals for the dog? HT or FT or both. I'm not so sure the dog sees orange as it sees a straight line pole where everything else is grass, trees and natural looking. And then there is this hand made straight edged pole. If I use a pole I put it directly in front of a tree so that its shape is not so visible. I also use flowers bought at the Dollar Store. I spray them orange also. They are very effective during the spring and summer when wildflowers are out.

I try to use natural terrain features as blind markers but that is not always possible.

I disagree with Breck about running past a blind as being a bad thing. I have a hard time with depth perception on long blinds and my dog will occasionally get past a blind and be handled back. Not a big deal.

It is very common for blinds to be marked at hunt tests using flowers, orange marking tape, bush spray painted orange, etc.

I have been trying not to handle as tight in training as i would in a test. I want to work on momentum during training also. Because of this Rowdy's blind attitude has improved greatly.

DL I think you need to find a training group and you can get some advice from people who actually observe your dog. Or buy a decent video camera and a tripod. Decent video cameras are getting pretty inexpensive. It is hard to describe dog events in words. And a hand held video from a iphone isn't so good either because it doesn't show you.

 

Thanks, I have a group. I like to ask questions on here while I'm sitting at work thinking about it. Part of it is lack of restraint. I have to be incognito for that. I appreciate the help, and regret that I have a hard time remembering who is who. I don't do this on purpose but my dog can see a pole at 150 yards against the horizon. It definitely helps them find the bumper. Anybody that says otherwise is crazy. Whether or not the bumper is orange or white makes a difference too. I have to get away from the poles which isn't a problem.

 

As far as being legit, look at my post count, isn't that my life history?

 

"I'd explain but but it would help people that don't deserve help."

OK, Wayne could you translate that for me?

 

My translation of that is you're encouraging Wayne not to help me because I don't deserve it like he is your friend. I can understand that because I like Wayne too. Did you go to an all girl school? jk, I thought that was a good comeback. Take care and enjoy everyone. I'm done. I was never legit.

 

Jim Boyer asked me to translate because I have a history of being able to decipher posts from a person who was on the surface having trouble communicating. I was the only one that could make sense out of the posts. There will be all kinds of comments made on this forum. Some good, some not so good. As Chris has often said you have to find the peanut in the box of crackerjacks.

I think people are not sure about you, DL, because you seem to be overthinking many simple issues. And you want to debate with those who are quite accomplished. Sometimes it's just best to accept the replies and try to work with the ones that work for you. And try not to run them into the ground.

I am not trying to be a smart aleck but give you some advice that has worked for me. I hope this helps.

 

Not real sure why someone would ask people for their advice, then get defensive when the give the advice asked for. I am just learning myself! I am learning from someone that really knows what they are doing. I can tell you that you are not doing it the right way!

 

Breck, thank you for your post #21, explaining training on blinds. Really good.
I use orange tape tied to something, grass, tree branches, blackberries, so I can see where the blind is. I'm not sure i understand the comments regarding using poles etc. I have used them a few times in training also as a training aid. Isn't that what training is?

 

Not Breck, but...

There are times when I want the dog to be able to see the blind from 20-30 yards. If I've run a blind with a tough start and middle, I don't want to get in a battle at the end. Other times I work on endings. When working in endings, you obviously wouldn't want the dog to see the blind until the very end. I don't set out "targets", but sometimes use poles or markers.