Looking for a 12 gauge pump for a training gun that will not rust. I have been looking at camo pumps and also the 887. Any insight would help greatly?
Thanks Curtiss
Thanks Curtiss
Rust Proof Shotgun
CLindsay
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14,806 Posts
buy an 870 and soak it in Ed's Red and toss it under the back seat of the truck
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391 Posts
Buy and old 870 and krylon black, problem solved.
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15,660 Posts
couple of choices..buy the RM 870 marine stainless version, buy an 870 express and have it parkerized....or buy an over/under with fewer moving parts and a parkerized finish...the older Winchester SX2 waterfowl model with a green Duratouch stock was also very good against the elements
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14,806 Posts
from Gooser-
"Ed's Red"
The formula is adapted from Hatcher's "Frankford Arsenal Cleaner No.18," but substitutes equivalent modern materials. Hatcher's recipe called for equal parts of acetone, turpentine, Pratts Astral Oil and sperm oil, and (optionally) 200 grams of anhydrous lanolin per liter into the cleaner.
Some discussion of the ingredients in ER is helpful to understand the properties of the cleaner and how it works. Pratts Astral Oil was nothing more than acid free, deodorized kerosene. Today you would ask for "K1" kerosene of the type sold for use in indoor space heaters.
An inexpensive, effective substitute for sperm oil is Dextron III automatic transmission fluid. Prior to 1950 most ATF's were sperm oil based. During WWII sperm oil was mostly unavailable, so highly refined, dewaxed hydro finished petroleum oils were developed, which had excellent thermal stability. When antioxidants were added to prevent gumming these worked well in precision instruments.
With the high demand for automatic transmission autos after WWII, sperm oil was no longer practical to produce ATFs in the needed quantities needed, so the wartime expedients were mass produced. ATFs have been continually improved over the years. The additives contained in Dextron include detergents or other surfactants, which are highly suitable for inclusion in an all-purpose cleaner, lubricant and preservative.
Hatcher's Frankford Arsenal No. 18 used gum spirits of turpentine, but turpentine is both expensive and also highly flammable, so I chose not to use it. Much safer and more inexpensive are "aliphatic mineral spirits," which are an open-chain organic solvent, rather than the closed chain, benzene ring structure, common to "aromatics," such as naphtha or "lighter fluid." Sometimes called "safety solvent," aliphatic mineral spirits are used for thinning oil based paint, as automotive parts cleaner and is commonly sold under the names "odorless mineral spirits," "Stoddard Solvent" or "Varsol".
Acetone is included to provide an aggressive, fast-acting solvent for caked smokeless powder residues. Because acetone readily evaporates and the fumes are harmful in high concentrations, it is recommended that it be left out if the cleaner will be used indoors, in soak tanks or in enclosed spaces lacking forced air ventilation. Containers should be kept tightly closed when not in use. ER is still effective without acetone, but not as "fast-acting."
"Ed's Red" does not chemically dissolve copper fouling in rifle bores, but it does a better job of removing carbon and primer residue than most other cleaners. Many users have told me, that frequent and exclusive use of "ER" reduces copper deposits, because it removes the old impacted powder fouling left behind by other cleaners. This reduces the abrasion and adhesion of jacket metal to the bore, leaving a cleaner surface condition, which reduces subsequent fouling. Experience indicates that "ER" will actually remove metal fouling in bores if it is left to "soak," for a few days so the surfactants will do the job, when followed by a repeat cleaning. You simply have to be patient.
Addition of lanolin to ER is optional, because the cleaner works perfectly well and gives adequate corrosion protection and lubrication without it. Inclusion of lanolin makes the cleaner easier on the hands, increases its lubricity and film strength and improves corrosion protection if firearms, tools or equipment will be routinely exposed to salt air, water spray, or corrosive urban atmospheres.
I recommend the lanolin included if you intend to use the cleaner for protecting for long-term storage or for a "flush" after water cleaning of black powder firearms or those fired with military chlorate primers. This is because lanolin has a great affinity for water and readily emulsifies so that the bore can be wiped of residual moisture, leaving a protective film. If you inspect your guns and wipe them down twice yearly, you can leave out the lanolin and save about $10 per gallon.
At current retail prices you can buy all the ingredients to mix ER, without the lanolin for about $12 per gallon. I urge you to mix some yourself. I am confident it will work as well for you as it does for me.
CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner
Mix outdoors, in good ventilation. Use a clean 1-gallon metal, chemical-resistant, heavy gage PET or PVC plastic container. NFPA approved plastic gasoline storage containers are OK. Do NOT use HDPE, which is permeable, because the acetone will slowly evaporate. Acetone in ER will attack HDPE over time, causing the container to collapse, making a heck of a mess!
Add the ATF first. Use the empty container to measure the other components, so that it is thoroughly rinsed. If you incorporate the lanolin into the mixture, melt this carefully in a double boiler, taking precautions against fire. Pour the melted lanolin it into a larger container, rinsing the lanolin container with the bore cleaner mix, and stirring until it is all dissolved. I recommend diverting up to 4 ozs. Per quart of the 50-50 ATF/kerosene mix to use as "ER-compatible" gun oil. This can be done without impairing the effectiveness of the remaining mix.
"Ed's Red"
The formula is adapted from Hatcher's "Frankford Arsenal Cleaner No.18," but substitutes equivalent modern materials. Hatcher's recipe called for equal parts of acetone, turpentine, Pratts Astral Oil and sperm oil, and (optionally) 200 grams of anhydrous lanolin per liter into the cleaner.
Some discussion of the ingredients in ER is helpful to understand the properties of the cleaner and how it works. Pratts Astral Oil was nothing more than acid free, deodorized kerosene. Today you would ask for "K1" kerosene of the type sold for use in indoor space heaters.
An inexpensive, effective substitute for sperm oil is Dextron III automatic transmission fluid. Prior to 1950 most ATF's were sperm oil based. During WWII sperm oil was mostly unavailable, so highly refined, dewaxed hydro finished petroleum oils were developed, which had excellent thermal stability. When antioxidants were added to prevent gumming these worked well in precision instruments.
With the high demand for automatic transmission autos after WWII, sperm oil was no longer practical to produce ATFs in the needed quantities needed, so the wartime expedients were mass produced. ATFs have been continually improved over the years. The additives contained in Dextron include detergents or other surfactants, which are highly suitable for inclusion in an all-purpose cleaner, lubricant and preservative.
Hatcher's Frankford Arsenal No. 18 used gum spirits of turpentine, but turpentine is both expensive and also highly flammable, so I chose not to use it. Much safer and more inexpensive are "aliphatic mineral spirits," which are an open-chain organic solvent, rather than the closed chain, benzene ring structure, common to "aromatics," such as naphtha or "lighter fluid." Sometimes called "safety solvent," aliphatic mineral spirits are used for thinning oil based paint, as automotive parts cleaner and is commonly sold under the names "odorless mineral spirits," "Stoddard Solvent" or "Varsol".
Acetone is included to provide an aggressive, fast-acting solvent for caked smokeless powder residues. Because acetone readily evaporates and the fumes are harmful in high concentrations, it is recommended that it be left out if the cleaner will be used indoors, in soak tanks or in enclosed spaces lacking forced air ventilation. Containers should be kept tightly closed when not in use. ER is still effective without acetone, but not as "fast-acting."
"Ed's Red" does not chemically dissolve copper fouling in rifle bores, but it does a better job of removing carbon and primer residue than most other cleaners. Many users have told me, that frequent and exclusive use of "ER" reduces copper deposits, because it removes the old impacted powder fouling left behind by other cleaners. This reduces the abrasion and adhesion of jacket metal to the bore, leaving a cleaner surface condition, which reduces subsequent fouling. Experience indicates that "ER" will actually remove metal fouling in bores if it is left to "soak," for a few days so the surfactants will do the job, when followed by a repeat cleaning. You simply have to be patient.
Addition of lanolin to ER is optional, because the cleaner works perfectly well and gives adequate corrosion protection and lubrication without it. Inclusion of lanolin makes the cleaner easier on the hands, increases its lubricity and film strength and improves corrosion protection if firearms, tools or equipment will be routinely exposed to salt air, water spray, or corrosive urban atmospheres.
I recommend the lanolin included if you intend to use the cleaner for protecting for long-term storage or for a "flush" after water cleaning of black powder firearms or those fired with military chlorate primers. This is because lanolin has a great affinity for water and readily emulsifies so that the bore can be wiped of residual moisture, leaving a protective film. If you inspect your guns and wipe them down twice yearly, you can leave out the lanolin and save about $10 per gallon.
At current retail prices you can buy all the ingredients to mix ER, without the lanolin for about $12 per gallon. I urge you to mix some yourself. I am confident it will work as well for you as it does for me.
CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner
- 1 part Dextron ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
- 1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
- 1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits (Odorless Mineral spirits)
- 1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.
- (Optional 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, or OK to substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)
Mix outdoors, in good ventilation. Use a clean 1-gallon metal, chemical-resistant, heavy gage PET or PVC plastic container. NFPA approved plastic gasoline storage containers are OK. Do NOT use HDPE, which is permeable, because the acetone will slowly evaporate. Acetone in ER will attack HDPE over time, causing the container to collapse, making a heck of a mess!
Add the ATF first. Use the empty container to measure the other components, so that it is thoroughly rinsed. If you incorporate the lanolin into the mixture, melt this carefully in a double boiler, taking precautions against fire. Pour the melted lanolin it into a larger container, rinsing the lanolin container with the bore cleaner mix, and stirring until it is all dissolved. I recommend diverting up to 4 ozs. Per quart of the 50-50 ATF/kerosene mix to use as "ER-compatible" gun oil. This can be done without impairing the effectiveness of the remaining mix.
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14,806 Posts
INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE:
1. Open the firearm action and ensure the bore is clear. Cleaning is most effective when done while the barrel is still warm from firing. Saturate a cotton patch with bore cleaner, wrap or impale on jag and push it through the bore from breech to muzzle. The patch should be a snug fit. Let the first patch fall off and do not pull it back into the bore.
2. Wet a second patch, and similarly start it into the bore from the breech, this time scrubbing from the throat area forward in 4-5" strokes and gradually advancing until the patch emerges out the muzzle. Waiting approximately 1 minute to let the bore cleaner soak will improve its action.
3. For pitted, heavily carbon-fouled service rifles, leaded revolvers or neglected bores a bronze brush wet with bore cleaner may be used to remove stubborn deposits. This is unnecessary for smooth, target-grade barrels in routine use.
4. Use a final wet patch pushed straight through the bore to flush out loosened residue dissolved by Ed's Red. Let the patch fall off the jag without pulling it back into the bore. If you are finished firing, leaving the bore wet will protect it from rust for 1 year under average atmospheric conditions.
5. If lanolin is incorporated into the mixture, it will protect the firearm from rust for up to two years, even in a humid environment.
6. Wipe spilled Ed's Red from exterior surfaces before storing the gun. While Ed's Red is harmless to blue and nickel finishes, the acetone it contains may be harmful to some wood finishes.
7. Before firing again, push two dry patches through the bore and dry the chamber, using a patch wrapped around a suitably sized brush or jag. Ed’s Red usually will not disturb first shot point of impact if the bore is cleaned as described.
8. I have determined to my satisfaction that when Ed's Red is used exclusively and thoroughly, that hot water cleaning is unnecessary after use of Pyrodex or military chlorate primers. However, if bores are not wiped between shots and are heavily caked from black powder fouling, hot water cleaning is recommended first to break up heavy fouling deposits. Water cleaning should be followed by a flush with Ed's Red to prevent after-rusting, which could result from residual moisture. It is ALWAYS good practice to clean TWICE, TWO DAYS APART whenever using chlorate primed ammunition, to make sure you get the entire corrosive residue out.
Ps- I also have forgot to wipe off the excess from the outside of the gun prior to storage. Never has created a problem. The acetone evaporates really fast! The acetone MAY be a problem to wood finishes,, but the mix has very little in it comparatively. It also evaporates really fast. The newer finishes on most forearms are alcohol and solvent resistant. Some of the finishes on older Vintage guns,, I would be careful using the acetone mixture. I have both Vintage and Modern guns,, and have never had a problem with the acetone removing finish from the stocks.
1. Open the firearm action and ensure the bore is clear. Cleaning is most effective when done while the barrel is still warm from firing. Saturate a cotton patch with bore cleaner, wrap or impale on jag and push it through the bore from breech to muzzle. The patch should be a snug fit. Let the first patch fall off and do not pull it back into the bore.
2. Wet a second patch, and similarly start it into the bore from the breech, this time scrubbing from the throat area forward in 4-5" strokes and gradually advancing until the patch emerges out the muzzle. Waiting approximately 1 minute to let the bore cleaner soak will improve its action.
3. For pitted, heavily carbon-fouled service rifles, leaded revolvers or neglected bores a bronze brush wet with bore cleaner may be used to remove stubborn deposits. This is unnecessary for smooth, target-grade barrels in routine use.
4. Use a final wet patch pushed straight through the bore to flush out loosened residue dissolved by Ed's Red. Let the patch fall off the jag without pulling it back into the bore. If you are finished firing, leaving the bore wet will protect it from rust for 1 year under average atmospheric conditions.
5. If lanolin is incorporated into the mixture, it will protect the firearm from rust for up to two years, even in a humid environment.
6. Wipe spilled Ed's Red from exterior surfaces before storing the gun. While Ed's Red is harmless to blue and nickel finishes, the acetone it contains may be harmful to some wood finishes.
7. Before firing again, push two dry patches through the bore and dry the chamber, using a patch wrapped around a suitably sized brush or jag. Ed’s Red usually will not disturb first shot point of impact if the bore is cleaned as described.
8. I have determined to my satisfaction that when Ed's Red is used exclusively and thoroughly, that hot water cleaning is unnecessary after use of Pyrodex or military chlorate primers. However, if bores are not wiped between shots and are heavily caked from black powder fouling, hot water cleaning is recommended first to break up heavy fouling deposits. Water cleaning should be followed by a flush with Ed's Red to prevent after-rusting, which could result from residual moisture. It is ALWAYS good practice to clean TWICE, TWO DAYS APART whenever using chlorate primed ammunition, to make sure you get the entire corrosive residue out.
Ps- I also have forgot to wipe off the excess from the outside of the gun prior to storage. Never has created a problem. The acetone evaporates really fast! The acetone MAY be a problem to wood finishes,, but the mix has very little in it comparatively. It also evaporates really fast. The newer finishes on most forearms are alcohol and solvent resistant. Some of the finishes on older Vintage guns,, I would be careful using the acetone mixture. I have both Vintage and Modern guns,, and have never had a problem with the acetone removing finish from the stocks.
Thanks Ken for all of your help. I have a Benelli SBE 2 balck synthetic and I have had problems with rust. I have a Benelli Super Nova Tactical. It only has a 18.5 inch barrel. It is black synthetic also. I was not sure if I wanted to get another barrel for it and take the chance on rust. I was wanting to use it as a back-up gun but I am worried about it rusting. So the Ed's Red will create a rust proof barrier for the life of the gun or do I need to reapply?
Thanks Curtiss
Thanks Curtiss
If your guns is rustin~~ Its you beein lazy!
Eds red works well for me!
You can make Gallons of it relativly cheaply.
Dont have to spend $7.00 to get 6 ounces of a good cleaning and rust preventative solvent.
I use that stuff for all kids a things. I take it to work and protect my tools, I have used it as a penatrating oil on rusted bolts on my ol clunker truck. Lug nuts! door latches~~ I think Ken uses it on that nipple wrench thing a his! PICS?:razz:
Gooser
Eds red works well for me!
You can make Gallons of it relativly cheaply.
Dont have to spend $7.00 to get 6 ounces of a good cleaning and rust preventative solvent.
I use that stuff for all kids a things. I take it to work and protect my tools, I have used it as a penatrating oil on rusted bolts on my ol clunker truck. Lug nuts! door latches~~ I think Ken uses it on that nipple wrench thing a his! PICS?:razz:
Gooser
Joined
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49 Posts
I bought an 887 this year, thus far, I love it, and have had ZERO instances of rusting, or any other problems, it truely is an impressive piece of equipment for how cheap (relatively stating of course) it is.
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14,806 Posts
You need to reapply. I, like most folk I know take all my guns out of the cabinet, nightstands, coffee table and truck on Christmas Day, afternoon. Stack um on the kitchen table and clean them. As after Christmas most seasons are over. Give um all a good takedown and scrubbing and put um away. Just tossing a dog training and ruffed grouse shotgun back into the truck. I have used the red for a couple seasons now since Gooser first posted it. I have noted that the guns in the cabinet that were never fired since the Christmas day previous were still pristine. Now if I take a couple black powder rifles to the range or break a few cases of clays with a shotgun. I will clean it with the red before putting it away. Bench rest shooting I bring a wee bit of the red to the range as a barrel swab. Totally improved black powder bench rest groups!!! Had a couple shotguns live in the truck all summer for dog training and cleaned um before hunting season and they were in great shape. It is a great product and I think of Gooser every time I clean my guns.
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14,806 Posts
1 lb. of Anhydrous Lanolin,
Yup, my drug store needs 1 day to get it,
but at least they have stopped asking what I am doing with it
I am sure the kindly blue haired cashier thinks “Cleaning my gun”
Was some slang for something quite, … um…… different.
‘cause the look on her face…….
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12,852 Posts
have they discontinued the SS Red Label?.......I was waiting for a 20 gauge model
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5,163 Posts
No steel wool and WD 40?
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1,110 Posts
So how does the Benelli work with primer poppers????? Primers still rust everything.I have a Benelli with the factory baked on camo finish.
It dosen't rust, and I don't baby it.
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778 Posts
I've never shot poppers out of it...
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