[EdA]

The AKC rep was complimentary of the test difficulty and would have preferred that we had given out only two placements in lieu of scrapping and replacing the test. He further commented that they was not at all happy with the owner/handler qualifying stakes because they were seeing too many Qualifying tests that were way too easy.

great, so now we have activist AKC field reps, whose duties do not (and never have) included judging or critiquing tests...


JMHO your decision to scrap the test because you could not place 4 dogs is legitimate, however how fair is it to the 2 or 3 who have completed the test and must now do another set of water marks?

Typically when a test is scrapped for being too difficult it is replaced by one that is too easy.

For me, I would have rewarded the dogs who did the test and felt bad about not awarding all 4 places.

Such are the joys and rewards of judging.

 

[Mark Sehon]

Thanks Jim. I was also told you could scrap the test before the last bird was picked up by several OLD timers. The way the rules are are written leaves a lot to interpretation.

 

[EdA]

Thanks Jim. I was also told you could scrap the test before the last bird was picked up by several OLD timers. The way the rules are are written leaves a lot to interpretation.

Mark, I disagree, I do not think that

"The Judges may discontinue any test before it has been completed, provided that another test is substituted therefor".

Completed seems pretty specific to me, that is the last dog has not run.

If the last dog has run, done the test, failed, or been picked up that would mean that the test was completed.

 

[Vicki Worthington]

I wholeheartedly agree with EdA!!!!

 

[Tim Carrion]

"The Judges may discontinue any test before it has been completed, provided that another test is substituted therefor".

Completed seems pretty specific to me, that is the last dog has not run.

If the last dog has run, done the test, failed, or been picked up that would mean that the test was completed.

Agree but a dog is under judgement as soon as it is called to the line.
Judges could be playing with fire if they wait for birds to be thrown.
I don't often agree with the AKC but IMHO scrapping before you even call for last dog is a safer idea.

Tim

 

[EdA]

Agree but a dog is under judgement as soon as it is called to the line.
Judges could be playing with fire if they wait for birds to thrown.
I don't often agree with the AKC but IMHO scrapping before you even call for last dog is a safer idea.

Tim

we do not disagree about that (I thought what I typed was clear in that regard) if it was not my cognitive skills must be challenged today.;-)

Completed seems pretty specific to me, that is the last dog has not run..

I think even calling the last dog to line violates the rule. What if it commits a fatal error without ever picking up one bird.....

Certainly if one decided to scrap a test it would be before the last dog was called to line

 

[Howard N]

Quoted from the page 26, Trial Procedures, 3... "The Judges may discontinue any test before it has been completed, provided that another test is substituted therefor."

I'm to literal minded.

The above to me says the test can be scrapped up til the last dog has completed the test. Calling a dog to the line doesn't mean the dog completed the test. Telling the handler to pick up the dog to me means the dog did not complete the test and the test can be legitamentely be declared scrapped at that time.

If the AKC wanted us to scrap a test earlier they could have written the rule to say so. It wouldn't have been any harder to write the rule, "The Judges may disccontinue any test before the last dog has been called to the line."

I think it's smart and prudent to scrap the test earlier but it isn't required by the rules.

 

[Mark Sehon]

Rules are Rules. Well said Howard!. If I have to scrap a test from now on, it will be before the last dog comes to the line.


Thanks again Jim!!

 

[EdA]

I'm to literal minded.

The above to me says the test can be scrapped up til the last dog has completed the test. .

what if the last dog breaks and has therefore "completed the test"?

 

[Marvin S]

what if the last dog breaks and has therefore "completed the test"?

IMO - if a dog is under judgment the judges are setting themselves up for trouble. A dog can have a controlled break in a Q & still be under contention, but if the handler inadverdently touches the dog they are disqualified.

I can see where Jim was going by trying to salvage something from nothing. I would say those who failed to use a whistle were more at fault. A judge cannot foresee handler error, they can only judge what happens. IMO if you, as a judge in this situation, let the last dog out of the holding blind you are asking for trouble.

 

[Jim Pickering]

great, so now we have activist AKC field reps, whose duties do not (and never have) included judging or critiquing tests...

I knew I should have omitted the remark about the AKC rep. After I had been told, in a very civil manner, who the cow should have eaten the cabbage I was more interested in getting on with judging and may not have understood his remark correctly.

JMHO your decision to scrap the test because you could not place 4 dogs is legitimate, however how fair is it to the 2 or 3 who have completed the test and must now do another set of water marks?

I agree that scrapping the test after two dogs had picked up three birds was a bit unfair to the owners and handlers of those two dogs and that was part of why I was reluctant to scrap the test. Often when judges try to be fair to one they are being unfair to others. That is an unfortunate part of the game. Had one or both of those two dog had a clean job on the test it would not have been scrapped. Had it been an all age stake scrapping it would never have been considered. Place two and maybe three dogs with marginal work was just not that appealing a though.

Typically when a test is scrapped for being too difficult it is replaced by one that is too easy.

True, but I doubt that the handlers in this case would complain that the replacement test was too easy. The replacement test was one that I had looked at when viewing the grounds on Thursday but the wind prevented running it on Friday afternoon. A different wind made it a good test on Saturday morning. On the redo test, we had one very good job, one good job, a one whistle/cast handle that was otherwise an excellent job, three other completions with handles of OK to weak and one pickup. It does not get much better from a judging prospective except that unfortunately the one pickup in the redo test was one of the dogs that have picked up three birds in the scrapped test. That was most regrettable.

For me, I would have rewarded the dogs who did the test and felt bad about not awarding all 4 places.

With the benefit of hindsight had I know that the AKC rep was going to say bad things about me in his report, I would have completed the original test and parked my truck at the local police station over night.

Such are the joys and rewards of judging

Yep, but the great food made it all worthwhile.

 

[Howard N]

what if the last dog breaks and has therefore "completed the test"?

Test complete.

 

[Jim Pickering]

Thanks Jim. I was also told you could scrap the test before the last bird was picked up by several OLD timers. The way the rules are are written leaves a lot to interpretation.

You are most welcome, but thank Jay for posting the question.

I was running an Amateur stake some years back and had two of nine dogs back to the water marks. I had one dog that took perfectly straight line to all three marks, and the other had one small hunt. Two other dogs had managed to find three birds without help from their handlers. The other five had handled on one or two marks or had picked up. When the handler of the last dog blew her whistle to handle on the last mark the judges scrapped the test. One of the judges had judged a National so you, Howard and I are not the only judges who had interpreted this rule incorrectly.

At the time I was a bit unhappy and tried to find cause in the rules to protest but could not based on reading this rule that allows a test to be scrapped until it is "complete". Too bad the same AKC rep was not on hand at that trial. I would have had a 1st and 2nd, qualified one dog for a National and known not to scrap a test while the last dog is running.

The game is not always fair in spite of our best efforts.

 

[Jim Pickering]

I'm to literal minded.

The above to me says the test can be scrapped up til the last dog has completed the test. Calling a dog to the line doesn't mean the dog completed the test. Telling the handler to pick up the dog to me means the dog did not complete the test and the test can be legitamentely be declared scrapped at that time.

If the AKC wanted us to scrap a test earlier they could have written the rule to say so. It wouldn't have been any harder to write the rule, "The Judges may disccontinue any test before the last dog has been called to the line."

I think it's smart and prudent to scrap the test earlier but it isn't required by the rules.

Until my chat with the AKC rep, my interpretation of this rule was consistent with yours Howard. That is pretty much what my co-judge told the AKC rep, something like if judges were not to scrap a test after the last dog is called to the line then rule should state ii that way.

As Ed points out, if the last dog committed a fatal fault like breaking, eating the first bird retrieved, switching, peeing on the judge’s foot, etc before the judges decided to scrap the test and instructed the handler to pick up the dog, the test is complete and the judges no longer have the option to scrap the test.

 

[Ricky Elston]

Mr. Jim,

Thanks again for coming out and taking your time to judge so others can play. What a thankless job judging is.

Ricky