[Hunt'EmUp]

So been reading the flat throw thread about seniors. Seems there might be a bit of disconnect btw what people are expecting, what is being setup and how it's being judged. Figured we could get a discussion going on what people should be training for and expecting the inbwt levels, senior,seasoned,intermediate and what is standard, lacking and over the top.

So my take, seniors
The inbwt hardest stake to setup hardest stake to Judge, This is the stake where you never know what you'll get you can get whimpy tests; then tests rivaling the master nationals "just a double". The thing about it all of them are legal and when judge to the correct standard fair.

Marks = double, I'd consider fair, correct distances but from the station (in, flat, back); I want them well separated as I want to actually see marking, but might have diversion or some such incorporated in, yes bulldogs, but it will not bhit in the dog in head, the dog will have to make an obvious swItch . Most likely different distance and obstacle to overcome, Terrian changes, defiantly no pillows in the water, no super cheaty enteries if it can be helped, decoys a must, as this is the level where dogs seem to always pick them up

Blind = tough, I usually prefer longer blinds with factor to work, NOt give me's but the judging is very suspect. As IMO all we're judging in the inbwt is teamwork, so work together, a few mistakes Ok as long as dog is working with you, get it done, don't give up, but must show progress, and handler must attempt to keep dog online, not overly loud, threatening or annoying.

This is what I train for and what I expect from this level, might be how I judge the level as well. That said been to different tests that are all over the place, you just never know with this level, got a few SH ribbons that rival, some MH, but that just might be part of the fun of running an Inbwter. Also at this point I think most judges do expect a handler to make it off the line before throwing up

 

[Happy Gilmore]

Since you aren't trying to get a winner, a rule book length of marks and a rule book blind. Fair marks, fair blind. If you are some hunt test judge who wants a reputation as a hard judge, go run some field trial. Everyone likes judges who put up hard and challenging tests. Don't forget that all the dogs must complete an honor.

 

[suepuff]

Blind = tough, I usually prefer longer blinds with factor to work, NOt give me's but the judging is very suspect. As IMO all we're judging in the inbwt is teamwork, so work together, a few mistakes Ok as long as dog is working with you, get it done, don't give up, but must show progress, and handler must attempt to keep dog online, not overly loud, threatening or annoying.

^^^all my mentors and trainers drilled in my head. Challenge the blind. Even in my early years. My first ever senior tests, I may have hit a lot of whistles but it was because I wanted forward progression within that line to the blind. Scared to death the whole time doing it but rarely lost dogs, hoping they would find their way back there!

 

[Kasomor]

When I set up, judge or run a SH test;
I want decent line manners on a dog, The dog doesnt need to be polished but I want to see team work coming, at the line and leaving the line.

I want to see the dog pick up a double. The marks dont have to be maximum distance and they dont need to be overloaded with factors but shouldn't be a gimme.... both on land and water.

I want to see blinds that the dog and handler are working as a team. Again, it doesnt need to be maximum distance or overloaded with factors so its a 10 whistle blind for the average dog. I just want to see the dog handle.

We are suppose to be encouraging handlers to train their dogs further so while the test shouldn't be a gimme, it isnt preperation for Master either. Its a SENIOR TEST. When they get to Master then it can get fancy, Senior is nothing fancy.

 

[GregD]

I just ran my first senior test this past weekend. Some observations from a beginner, obedience plays a huge role in success or failure. My dog was very loose with heeling on the walk up and got a deserved " controlled break" it is hard not to have a controlled break when the dog is getting 3 feet ahead of you and then jumping back to heel. so that is the first thing I need to address. The next thing I noticed on the water double was the winger going off seemed to make a lot of dogs jump on the second bird. Mine included. The winger going off may be a strange sound to a dog used to hand thrown marks but sit means sit and that is the second thing we will address. So we went out on two controlled breaks, that was on me for not having some basics dialed down. I learned a lot and enjoyed the test but will need to be better prepared before the next one

 

[DarrinGreene]

I just think as a competitor you need to look at the rules and understand them - for a given venue. I am only familiar with AKC really but I look at it this way...

The rule say a double, xx max distance and the blind "outside" the marks.

It doesn't say "square water entries" - although for most dogs that's preferable in terms of not "un-training" them. It doesn't say "no contrary marks" although again - for a SH level dog it's probably not what most people would consider the best way to go.

All that said - if the rules allow it you should be ready to handle it - so your SH level dog (as we've all heard over and over and over again) should be running MH level stuff successfully in training before you enter.

Judging standards and preparation being separate but related topics, I think most judge's just expect to see the dog actually mark, have half decent line manners and work as a team with their handler... That said - who knows what grounds they have available (SH doesn't usually get the premium spot if there's a MH happening), what they think is "challenging" vs. "over the top"...

Any time you have 100 people judging a set up (and you do, every weekend), there are going to be a lot of varying opinions.

So - over prepare and have your dog underwhelmed if you're a participant and as a judge - keep in mind these are young dogs and their trainer/handlers would benefit from not having to undue problems your test created.

Also - I was taught and believe this - as a competitor - play the LONG GAME with your dog.

If he's not decheated and for whatever reason they throw a cheaty mark - handle him and fail or don't run at all. Don't let one ribbon entice you into digging a hole you'll have a hard time getting out of.

 

[Tobias]

I am not expert on the AKC side of things....

I don't think blinds need to be tough for senior level (intermediate NAHRA) dogs. When I think of a mid level dog, I think of one that is just out of transition. I would expect the dog's ability to run a blind smoothly and on a 'tight line' to be about 60% the ability of a master level dog. I expect some cast refusals/scallops. I also expect some whistle refusals and popping. I don't count whistles - if the dog is making 'general' progression to the blind and shows willingness to work with the handler a good percentage of the time, he is doing about what I expect a mid level dog to do. One or two factors is all that is normally needed to see if a mid level dog can handle... which is what I am looking for.

I also don't think a mid level dog should be 'required' to challenge the line to the blind but should challenge the factors (ie angle entry into the water). As long as you are challenging the factors and your dog is in a general corridor most of the time, you are doing pretty good.

Marks - pretty wide spread with the memory mark being the key bird. Go bird might be slightly challenging, but won't handicap most good dogs. I want to see a dog come back to the line looking for the memory mark. I want the memory mark to be in cover to see if a dog can both mark and put on a good hunt. I might have a pillow on the water if it is the walk up or longer mark on water. I want to see a steady dog at this level.

 

[birddogn_tc]

I ran Senior this past spring. My experience was that the marks were a bit easier than I expected, (but I also have a good marking dog which helps calm the nerves...a couple marks had some meat to them) and the blinds were more difficult that I was expecting.

One blind had a 50 yard water entry and then 40 yards across the water. Excellent blind but just more than I was expecting in a Senior. Pros were saying it was tougher than the Master blind that day. We were prepared and did great but it was just surprising to me. Generally on the blinds, the judges stated they knew it was difficult but they would judge it like a Senior dog and not expect Master level performance.

 

[A team]

I believe Evan Grahm wrote it best when he wrote " you want to be underwhelmed when you go to a test not over whelmed". This holds true for all events. But you see it most often in the lower stakes, senior/qualifying. People train just for at the lower level and hope for the best.

If you go to a lower stake especially senior and you're hoping the marks are within the prescribed distance, if your hoping they don't throw a cheaty mark , your hoping there are no angled water entries, you and your little dog are probably not ready.

I ran a senior a while back and it was by every account a meaty senior , a very nice lady running behind me said " Oh my ! I've never had my dog swim all the way accross the pond" My question "way not?" The lady has a very nice dog but the dog did fail the test all due to preparation not lack of talent.

 

[David McCracken]

When the American Water Spaniels (and others) were allowed to run in AKC Retriever tests, Gumbo was already an HRCH titled dog. We ran Senior because I wanted to get my feet wet in AKC (having never run there). We went 5 for 5 with a couple of tests being very easy and a couple being pretty difficult. It seems to me there is a lot of inconsistency in what the judges set up for a Senior test.