[labhauler]

Stopping every third step and he will retract is not walking at heel.
I have a young dog who wants to do the same thing. He isnt going to the line without me. I have an older dog who goes to the line without me and I personally wont run him until he is older and has a better attitude with me. My young dog may run a trial in the spring simply to see how his line manners are. If he is not at heel and noisy - back to the truck. This is my 4th dog in trials. My first dog was totally out of control. My second was a different type of dog. My big trial dog I did all the basics on but I was weak on line manners. My young dog will be totally under control when he runs.
If you are concerned about line manners- and on the line is only part of it - watch master level dogs. Go to a trial and watch the Open dogs - then you'l see what heeling to the line means.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

i did not ask advice on correcting the issue, the title is "senior RULE question"

we will run. i would rather get booted at the line at one test than scratch. if an issue arises with not heeling well enough to the line, i have 3 weeks and 2 pros to help me fix it before another test. he did not pull all the way to the line. when i stop and say 'here" he retracts. he did not choke, he did not rear up on 2 legs, and he did not drag me.

thanks again - i am bowing out,,,,,,,

bruised and bloodied -

Well the first days (running a young dog) are the hardest days,
Don't you worry any more, 'Cause when life looks like easy
Street, there is danger at your door.
Think this through with me,let me know your mind.
Woh - oh, what I want to know, is are you kind?

It's a buck dancer's choice my friend; better take my advice.
You know all the rules by now and the fire from ice.
Will you come with me, won't you come with me?
Woh - oh, what I want to know, will you come with me?

 

[david gibson]

I don't understand why he even bothered to post if he is working with two pros who think his dog is fine. Two pros and a junior dog and hmmm - he is asking about walking to the line without his dog and wants no advice from the forum.
Hope he doesnt take that attitude with him to the line - judges love handlers who answer back.

it was a RULE question. i didnt want to call the guy right now and bother him in the field with a RULE question. i did not ask him that question yesterday - gee, if i had i would have saved all you surfgeo haters and doubters (and myself) a lot of frustration!

 

[labhauler]

I think you should call the AKC next time and then you won't have to put up with "all the surfgeo haters and doubters (and myself)".
I think you have a problem that no-one on this forum can help you with.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

- gee, if i had i would have saved all you surfgeo haters and doubters (and myself) a lot of frustration!

Hey David,
It’s not out fault; we don’t have Snicklefritze to smack around anymore.
so what ya going to do?

 

[john fallon]

At least 50% missed the mark and had to handle, so I hope they went home and worked on it;-)

For those that were at heel, what was being tested for by a MARK that was (by design ?) not seen by 50% of the field. ?

It's a visibility issue, You can't point out the gun stations so, insted of that, some attention getter is typically used.

john

 

[FOM]

it was a RULE question. i didnt want to call the guy right now and bother him in the field with a RULE question. i did not ask him that question yesterday - gee, if i had i would have saved all you surfgeo haters and doubters (and myself) a lot of frustration!

I don't think there are any "haters" on RTF. Yes you asked a rule question, but your question leads to conversations specifically about running a young dog, because your question about a rule along with your example lead in that direction.....so people offer advice based on that.

Then they get told - go pound sand, I know what I'm doing.....

Might word your rule question differently with no reference to your dog and it's behavior.....then all the extra conversation would not happen and no hating would be going on.....just asying....

It's just dogs picking stuff up..................or not..........

FOM <--- done with this thread now

 

[labhauler]

For those that were at heel, what was being tested for by a MARK that was (by design ?) not seen by 50% of the field. ?

It's a visibility issue, You can't point out the gun stations so, insted of that, some attention getter is typically used.

john

Not having been at that HT I would assume that the mark was the other direction from where the dog and handler were- probably looking at the live flyer station?!?! Wasnt it a walkup?

 

[Lady Duck Hunter]

it was a RULE question. i didnt want to call the guy right now and bother him in the field with a RULE question. i did not ask him that question yesterday - gee, if i had i would have saved all you surfgeo haters and doubters (and myself) a lot of frustration!

Aw..come on David, You know you love the notariety.

As a judge, I am of the opinion that a sit/stay between the holding blind and the line would be useful and practical for safety concerns in some cases, but most walks to the line will require you to have your dog show that he is under your control by walking from the holding blind to the line at heel.

Good luck to you in your first Senior next weekend. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[badbullgator]

For those that were at heel, what was being tested for by a MARK that was (by design ?) not seen by 50% of the field. ?

It's a visibility issue, You can't point out the gun stations so, insted of that, some attention getter is typically used.

john

Easy John, First it was not set up so that dogs would miss the mark. It was right out in the open and very easy to see IF your dog was walking at heel looking ahead rather than bouncing up and down, looking up at the handler, doing circles, getting out in front on its own. In fact it was the most visiable station in the test. Remember it is called a HUNT TEST and most of the dogs that did in fact see the mark were walking at heel looking for a bird to come as they should if hunting OR doing a walk up. The other dogs, those who missed the mark, were only looking to get to the line as soon as they could so that they could sit down and get their marks. In a real life hunting situation I want a dog that sees the birds as soon as I do if not before. The dogs that were well mannered, and I suppose to some extent experienced hunting dogs, had no problem. Let me ask you John do you hunt with a dog that cannot walk by your side and does the above mentioned behaviors either walking to the blind or walking the field in a days hunt?

Now John would you agree that using an attention getting device (duck call or what have you) PRIOR to throwing the mark is not really any different than having you walk your dog to the line and have him sit to watch the marks fall? IF you use an attention getter PRIOR to throwing the bird the handlers WILL sit the dog at the first sound and the dog sits there and watches the marks fall. I might be wrong, but the point of a walk up is to see how a dog handles a hunting situation while it is walking with the handler and is not the same thing as having a dog sit down and watch marks be thrown.

You may also want to consult your AKC rep and ask them how they feel about using attention getters PRIOR to a bird being thrown in a walk up situation ;-)

 

[dixidawg]

 

[john fallon]

Not having been at that HT I would assume that the mark was the other direction from where the dog and handler were- probably looking at the live flyer station?!?! Wasnt it a walkup?

Thats my point.
Lets say that you have a setup as you described where at a minimum.. the dog while walking at heel must also be ignoring the visible Flier station and be panning the horizon for a bird (s) coming from a hidden gun station(s) with no call or calls to get it's attention. ......................Is that truely testing MARKING.;-)

john

 

[Guest]

(snip)
i did not ask advice on correcting the issue, the title is "senior RULE question"
i have a pro i work with that knows my dog. he says run.
i thanked you and the others for your advice, but just because i do not heed advice i didnt ask for does not make me a bad guy. i have many other things that may make me a bad guy, but thats not one of them IMHO. ;-)
the advice of a pro that knows my dog is the only advice i will heed. there is no crime in that.

four jr passes, all perfect scores i believe - youngest dog by 2 months of 96 juniors. both pros i work with agree he has the mechanics to move up despite his age.

we will run. i would rather get booted at the line at one test than scratch. if an issue arises with not heeling well enough to the line, i have 3 weeks and 2 pros to help me fix it before another test. he did not pull all the way to the line. when i stop and say 'here" he retracts. he did not choke, he did not rear up on 2 legs, and he did not drag me.

thanks again - i am bowing out,,,,,,,

bruised and bloodied -

You're talking in circles... If you wanted to just talk about the rules, then don't tell us about the trainability issues you are having with your dog. Given that multiple people had the same input, I would hope there is some validity in it. Beyond that, you obviously feel you are doing the right thing for you and your dog with the guidance of your pros, so go for it!

You said it's "just a rules" question, yet you commended someone for giving you a TRAINING reply. The rest of us, who told you something you didn't want to hear, then get a snotty "this is about the rules" reply.

Your pros should be able to tell you how to get the behavior in training so you can fix it.

I am also surprised that either of your pros would advise you to go ahead and run senior with a dog that isn't completely under control going to the line at junior. I'd be very surprised if any pro would support you on this... If I had a dog that couldn't walk perfectly on heel to the line the weekend or a month before he's going to run senior, I wouldn't be running him.

I don't think ANY SINGLE ONE OF US said you were a bad guy, but you can have your pity party for one if you'd like. Some of us just don't agree with continuing running hunt tests with a dog with trainability issues IF you want to have a fun, relaxing, enjoyable hunt test career.

-K

 

[K G]

Excellent post, Kristie.

kg

 

[badbullgator]

Not having been at that HT I would assume that the mark was the other direction from where the dog and handler were- probably looking at the live flyer station?!?! Wasnt it a walkup?

No flyer station, the flyer was thrown in the previous series. The handlers had the option of walking DIRECTLY towards the station if that was their choice. Surprisingly a few of the handlers brought their dogs to the line walking AWAY form the station, why I don’t know. There was not “trick” to this, just a walk up. This was arguably the most exposed bird station in the series, one was completely hidden and the other was well out of the line of sight. The walk up station was straight up the middle and had a holding blind in front of it as well as brush around it.

 

[brlcon1]

Hang in there Surf , you got got your rule ? aswered . My ? is where'd you find apro that works on monday ?

BRL

 

[labhauler]

Thats my point.
Lets say that you have a setup as you described where at a minimum.. the dog while walking at heel must also be ignoring the visible Flier station and be panning the horizon for a bird (s) coming from a hidden gun station(s) with no call or calls to get it's attention. ......................Is that truely testing MARKING.;-)

john

I know this is not the original thread but....
I think the idea was to trick the dog - and I dont like tests that do that.
It is not the time to see if the dog is headswinging or otherwise; that's not what the judges are there for. Trainability , yes- perserverance yes, all the other stuff, but tricks like that - not in my book - and yes I judge too.

 

[Sean H]

Which pro's are you working with?

 

[labhauler]

Badbullgator

read your response after my post. Then it's all about the handlers.
I have been at tests where the judges are scratching their heads as to why the handler lined their dog south when the bird was west. Practise, practise, practise- then ya get to Carnegie Hall. My old pro still says "you get the line, you get the chicken."

 

[labhauler]

What's wrong with attention-getters? The dog is still in trouble if it is way ahead of the handler. Good opportunity to break too