I don't know what makes it so hard. Perhaps because we start pup on running memory birds, pick up short to long, and don't do enough short memory birds? And, we correct for breaking down early? Then, with triple, quad,hey, go ahead, check down, knucklehead? I do think dogs today are better at short retired than in the past. Most likely, more balanced training.

We always train secondary selection, it's the way we were taught. But, do think should be open to new ideas. Ideal selection sounds interesting.

I think a lot depends on the dog. Some have no problem going right back where they were, can run by a tight short retired for an out gun, then come right back in and dig it out. Some can't, maybe they worry more, they will need to get the short bird first.

In a trial, whatever works, training might be out the window.

 

i think one key is for the dog to have a very high success rate on them in training. too often, people expect the dog to transfer it's ability on long retireds to short birds.dogs just don't generalize skills that way. dogs needs balanced training on short, middle and long retireds, and i think it's better taught at a fairly early age. a lot of trainers are teaching these skills much earlier these days.

one teaching aid is to use an ABCD drill setup with 4 blinds/camo umbrellas. all 4 marks thrown as singles. the thrower immediately retires while the other 3 are visible. as the dog improves, you can hand throw off to the side while the thrower retires.

i think it also helps the dog understand the concept to exagerate the short or long bird. that is, to make the short bird really short in relation to the other mark(s), or vice versa

good topic!-Paul

 

Now THIS is what RTF exists to discuss! ;-)

Super content...awesome topic!

Chris

 

Obviously, based upon my comments in the previous thread, I train with secondary selection, shortest to longest approach. I also subscribe to the "keep it simple, stupid" theory.

Even in a trial, esp with a tight set-up, I don't think I would purposely send a dog for a long mark past a tight short mark (unless the dog clearly indicated he wanted the long mark in some way) before the short mark has been retrieved. The risk is too high that the dog would instead p/u the short mark anyway & I would be left with the prospect of attempting to convince the dog to take the same line again to the long mark (loud voice, hand down etc).

That's why I am convinced there is something else to Rorem's logic for teaching this 2 longs before a short retired as a concept that has not yet come into the conversation.

 

To me it appears the short marks are no brainer for the dog and if you could get him by those marks then go for it. I was surprised when the group I was with p/u the short first. Left me asking in my mind why and why one can't teach the dog to leave short alone? So all the marks down say to your dog, "no leave it" to the last short bird down???and aim him for the long bird??and say "that is it" . Should the dog go to where you want him to go no matter what? Just wondering?

I should add this is a great thread started before I joined RTF.

 

It's always best to let the dog have the 2 birds that they want... Usually in this situation the 2 long birds... That way you can talk them into the short retired third bird... There's nothing left to tempt them away from that "key" bird.

Teach it as a secondary selection bird as much as you can training, but at a trial or test go with what the dog wants and have a game plan accordingly...

Angie

 

It's always best to let the dog have the 2 birds that they want... Usually in this situation the 2 long birds... That way you can talk them into the short retired third bird... There's nothing left to tempt them away from that "key" bird.

Teach it as a secondary selection bird as much as you can training, but at a trial or test go with what the dog wants and have a game plan accordingly...

Angie

Always ??????????

john

 

I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this

1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
3) You want a dog that is comfortable picking up the birds in whatever sequence is appropriate
4) If a dog is only able to pick up the birds ... short, long, longer ... it won't be very successful if it is necessary to dig up the long bird before the short bird
5) So, you want to train your dog to be flexible in the manner in which it picks up the birds

 

I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this

1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
3) You want a dog that is comfortable picking up the birds in whatever sequence is appropriate
4) If a dog is only able to pick up the birds ... short, long, longer ... it won't be very successful if it is necessary to dig up the long bird before the short bird
5) So, you want to train your dog to be flexible in the manner in which it picks up the birds

A dogs natural tendency at a trial is to select the birds that are most appealing to them. That is long and long... the short retired is a money or "schooled" bird. Let the dog get those long birds that they want and then "talk" them into those short retired birds.

In training one will train conventionally to emphasize the short retired... To get them to relax and be comfortable with the short after long concept..

But a trial,,, the pick up is anything but....

Angie

 

Not that I agree or disagree with this method,but I definetly believe in having a dog with the upmost in balance!! I can't foreget what either Joe Harp or Hugh Author said one time "Rin Tin Tin can't go Long twice, then go short." Evidentally David has broken that train of thought, I have never tried that on purpose, but it has happened to me before!! I think I will discuss this topic at large with Mike and see what he thinks, I'm pretty sure what the answer will be, IT DEPENDS!!! Having a dog balanced with enough bottom to get that long retired punch bird and thinking enough to pickup the short retired right in front of a middle distance flyer is what we are all hoping to have, no matter what order your training dictates you to the order that you pickup the birds. This is the best topic RTF has had in a while.I hope to get to sit in on a Rorem seminar sometime in the near future to hear more about this topic.
CB

 

Maybe "Rin Tin Tin" can't go short after going long twice? But our AA dogs can. Think about it. Where else can they go but short once the long appealling birds have been picked up, in a situation that's been described?

Train for flexability and depth... A dog needs a very, very rich vocabulary to be successful week in and week out at field trials.

But be prepared for how a dog will want to pick up their marks at a trial. It can be very contrary to your training given the situation.

Angie

 

We reviewed the Carr -Rorem video tonight on the subject...it was interesting.Though the video is fairly old....it seems he was refining the theories he uses today.Pertty cool.

 

I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.

John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....

Thanks! Chris

 

I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.

John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....

Thanks! Chris

Chris,

I am glad you asked .

With my question to Angie about her "Always" advice.........
I was questioning her about advising people such as yourself on breaking the most basic tenants of dog training. The subject at hand is a prime example of this.

As to Long Long Short. I do not often train on it but do often train on the short retired component in the more conventional manner, but I would atempt to go long twice before short at a trial, if, in my estimation, at that point in time, with that dog, in the conditions at hand .................. it would afford us the best chance for success.
I feel that in an ongoing attempt to maintain balance,this is the best course for my dogs and... for most others for that matter

You see Chris , contrary to Angie's belief as demonstrated by her answer to my question, there are no absolutes in dog training.
I am sure that if you ask Dave (The only one that seems to be consistently training on this type of selection) ,Or Mike, or Danny, or Al, Or ED, or Allen, or...... rather than Angie they will tell you the same thing.


John

 

2 things come to mind in the selection decision: habits and picture.
Habits dealing with order that the dog is most accustomed/training. As creatures of habit many dogs are most confident picking up in reverse order.
Balance this against the picture presented to the dog. Retired or not how well did these throws standout as they were going down? What will dog be looking at when/if he overruns the short bird?

IMHO there is no formula. It's a game time decision.

Tim

 

Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.

It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.

 

Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.

It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.

I think this is mostly true. Having had the priviledge to run Dave's dogs at his seminars, they have been trained to run by that short gun. It was interesting to watch his dogs, compared to running my own dogs on the same test. The responses were amazing depending on whether the dog was trained to secondary select, or ideally select.

However, I have a dog or two that LOVES to run long, and if I attempt to secondary select, I can pretty much guarantee that I will be flipped the dew claw, and wind up with a mess. However, leaving the dog to run long, the dog has no issue with remembering teh short retired, or being talked into it.... listening to Dave talk, I now look at the birds int eh field as: THe flyer is filet mignon, the next bird is pot roast, and then there is hamburger...

The last trial ran, my female didn't bother to even watch the short go bird (it was dead)- didn't even turn her head, but was quivering with excitement over the two long birds... it's about knowing your dog, and knowing how they will respond at a trial.... something I'm still trying to figure out on a given weekend.

 

I don't agree that dogs are programmed to go long ... or better put, I think whether a dog prefers to go long or short depends

For example, if there is a short gun up - flyer or dead - you will find that some dogs will not want to look past that station or drive past that bird.

In the same vein, sometimes the dogs prefer the long bird because it is more attractive. For example, the short bird is a dinky throw, the long bird is a big throw across the horizon with feathers up in the sun. Depending on the conditions, a long dead bird can be more attractive to the dogs than the shorter flier.

It is one thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to a long unretired bird.

It is another thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to the long retired bird.

There are so many different variables that I don't know how valid any generalizations are here.

I never met the man, but I have heard plenty of Rex Carr's students tell me that even though he worked on secondary selection in training that when he was at a trial, if there was an attractive bird that the dogs wanted that was long, he would tell his students to let the dogs take that bird.

 

I just attended the Rorem Seminar in Florida as observer. I hope everyone trains on secondary selection. I'm training on ideal selection.

A quote "don't be prisoners of bad habits."

I would like to take that one step further, Don't be prisoners of habit.

Paul Young - you would love the handling Seminar. It is all about reading dogs.
for example I've changed my outlook on the old saying my dog lied to me.

Rorem - Dogs don't lie you read your dog wrong.
Paul I owe you so I will discuss the seminar when I see you. Best seminar I have ever attended and plan to attend again next year.

 

Is "ideal selection" really just no selection at all? Just let the dog pick up whatever bird it wants in whatever order it wants?

 

Absolutely Not. It is used in training.

Attend the seminar.

 

I do train secondary selection almost 98% of the time. A short retired thrown second will be picked up second in training since I train secondary selection. I think it also makes a dog more flexible and with time more relaxed with difficult concepts. I could pick it up last in training since in the majority of cases it could be easier, but that's not my goal in training.

At a trial I will let the dog get it last. Especially if the other dogs aren't getting it second...

Angie

 

Long bird behind momma-poppa, out or not, go bird off to side. Momma retires into poppa. Pick up go bird, Then poppa. Now what?

Most, and I would never say always, but most times you are going to work pretty hard to pull out that momma bird, and try not to let them get the long gun.

Because it is so tight, many dogs will lose memory, and think they have picked up that bird, if they go long first. So, in that case, you might really want to get the bird you want, not the one the dog wants.

Do think it can be which dog, some are ok going back where they have just been, others not. But, maybe that is function of not so great training, although we have had both types, trained essentially the same.

 

What if a dog was trained with "primary" selection? Would you feel they would have a easier time digging out that short retired?

Angie

 

Well, most of us don't primary select, but yes, that would be a cool way to beat the test if you thought you could get away with it. Poppa, momma, then long birds.

But, what if, go bird flyer.......... tough

 

No kidding,,,, but that is how many train north of the border. Or at least that was the way they trained. It's been a while since I've talked or train with them.

Angie

 

North of the border = no flyers. Huge difference.

 

From North of the Border:
SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.

History of Selection (in brief)
In the good old days “selection” meant ‘sending your dog on the first retrieve for a bird other than the last bird down’ (go-bird). The test that really got this idea going was the indent in which you had a short retired in the middle and the flyer last bird down longer on the outside. This has been called the McAssey Test (John McAssey). This kind of selection became known as Primary selection and Rex Carr was one of its early proponents.
Primary selection has always been controversial because of the difficulty of pulling off flyers. Dogs reliable in training where not always reliable at trials (hmm –no kidding!) Often a lot of pressure was used. Interestingly in Canada, where all birds were dead, Primary selection was much easier and more often seen.

Secondary selection occurred when the handler selected which bird was picked up second. Usually, this meant the flyer was picked up first as a go-bird and then the next shortest bird was picked up. Again this was often that short retired bird with a longer one to go and after a longer one. Because this pattern was the most common, it became convention to call Secondary Selection, “picking up the short bird second”. In reality, it is secondary selection occurs when the handler selects which bird is retrieved second. One can even talk about tertiary selection when the handler selects which bird is third (as might be needed in a quad).

Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

Why do dogs over-run short?
1. We train so much on this in formative years-Short-long ad nauseum in Derby-teach that punch bird, get that long retired-force back-drive long!
2. Experienced dogs love flyers-ever notice short birds second as flyers are relatively easy? (Hint-great way to train short retireds). Dogs know when short birds are dead-they may be less certain that long bird was dead. Rex said to me: He wanted that long bird-he was hoping it was a flyer!” Note: Canadian dogs often primary select to short birds on their own when never exposed to flyers.
3. Visible birds are easier to remember than retired- a long visible is more attracting than a short retired-duh!
4. Dogs that have run long naturally are comfortable running long again because they have just been successful doing that.

What do I do?

For Chris: I say “Never says Always but Never say Never!”

I train over and over on being able to take a short bird after a longer bird. In day to day training this is usually second for clarity and simplicity although it could be done second, third or 4th. Is this secondary-yes! I am always selecting which bird is second in training. Is it tertiary –sometimes it is also. Is it ideal- yes because I’m deciding which bird next. I occasionally train on Primary for control reasons. Enough that I could do it in some trial situations.

In a trial, I “usually” go with my dog’s strengths- what is he best at? Because of my training, I often feel comfortable digging out that short retired second but not “always”. PS. I have both won and lost a National in the 10th by going contrary to my training. Four times the decision has been which bird to take 3rd when there was a middle and a long retired left.
There is always both Science and Art to handling! Knowing when to go with the dog and when to not go with the dog is the Art!

Cheers

 

Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

Cheers

Dennis,

I didn't get a clear perspective on Dave's "Ideal selection" principle, either, but rather just came away with the idea that he pretty much sent for the go bird (whether long or short) and let the dog indicate which he got next. Did you get that sort of impression?

Evan

 

I train secondary but I have had a dog that liked to take the short retired out first in a trial setting. All I had to do is say easy and his head locked on the short bird or he just did it himself, and over a flyer. Unfortunately I had this dog early in my career and he was handicapped by my lack of handling skills on blinds.

 

I seldom see quads. I train hard on secondary, selection digging the short retired out from in front of a long memory bird.

When you say, "Easy," for the older dogs they understand it and lock in on the short retired just like Nancy said.

In the excitement of a trial I've had them come back from the go bird and look out at the long bird. I've said easy and had them lock in on the short bird. We haven't always pulled it out but I've felt the dogs knew which one I wanted next when I've sent them. We've pulled it out in trials often enough to keep training on secondary selection.

I thought in the Rorem/Carr tapes Rorem was suggesting what he's now calling ideal selection for just some high roller type dogs. Now, he's saying use it for all dogs? Does he have a step by step method of training for it?

 

"Balance" must certainly be the order of the day: advanced dogs can see just about anything these days, & when you factor in how terrain & wind can affect long-short set-ups (we haven't talked about those factors yet), I think you have to be prepared to adjust your usual routine of pick-up order, at least sometimes; it can certainly happen that wind direction forces you to pick up birds in unusual order, & if you let the dog choose you will be going home!

A balanced dog that's at least been exposed in training to different possibilities, will be cooperative on line & willing to take direction-- you shouldn't have to "fight" them-- that's not to say that my plan isn't often to allow the dog to choose, but I only do that if the choices both make sense.

We ran a trial here North of the Border this summer where the set-up was a big quad, mostly wide-open (practically a double-double), w/ the go-bird long to the left of a shorter indent, the other 2 birds were way to the right, none retired (& of course no flyer).

The only dogs that did that test primary selected. Handlers only figured that out well into the test, & no one really figured out why that short visible gun disappeared for the dogs, if it was not picked up 1st-- & they didn't just overrun it, they went everywhere on God's green earth but to that bird; dogs that could not primary select were toast.

So it seems to me that the dog, (and especially the handler?) needs to be balanced & comfortable enough to go where the best possibility of success lies, even if that is sometimes contrary to regular training---however it is that you train!

Connie

 

One might say that an AA dog these days needs to feel comfortable to go anywhere, any time. They have to be ok, dry or wet, short or long.

Can see the same evolution in blinds. For a while chanel blinds were all the rage, don't get out. People started to train them, dogs got good. Next, how about we put the dog on the point, rather than by it. Failure with dogs that wouldn't get out, more training, more success. Once out, more training to get back in. Angle entries, dogs need to feel comfortable not getting in too early. Today, many water blinds may have a whole bunch of land in them.

We as mentors need to be great at communicating where TO go, rather than , where not to go.

This stuff just never gets old, how much farther can we take it??