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mufb

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Working FTP following Lardy. My pup did real well on 3 hand casting with bumpers 15-20 feet away. As we transition to FTP he is very slow on back even with force. The pile is identified first and then running from 10-15 yds away. He will take the cast, but not even the same energy as a mark.

If I remote sit him and throw a bumper over his head and then command back, he will tear out after because he saw it leave my hand. My pile is visible when we run.

I started with a little lighter collar pressure than what was used in CC to here/sit, but increased to that level but still can't get him to drive to the pile.

Should I just shorten distance until I get that drive and slowly move back or use more pressure? Or any other ideas suggestions.

Thanks
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I ran him to the pile for about 4 days before introducing any force (which I just started this morning). He never drove to the pile probably about 3/4 or 1/2 speed.
 
Is he slower now that you're forcing him?

FWIW: Even in a "perfect" program some dogs will never go as fast to a pile/blind as they do a mark.

[I'll be out for a while schooling a couple horses but I'll be happy to get into it tonight if you want.]
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Is he slower now that you're forcing him/QUOTE]

he is running about the same, when I burn he kicks it up some. I didn't expect marking speed, he just seems more methodical than I like.

During walking fetch he did great. He was actually FF'd last summercompletely. I revisited walking fetch prior to FTP as a refresher.
 
If it were my pup I would attribute slowness to being unsure and therefore I hold off on pressure until I am more sure she knew what "back" means. I'm at about the same point in training as you, I'm a newbie. It took me way longer than four days to get an enthusiastic retrieve from a "back" command. She started doing the slow trot again when I started slipping in sit whistles.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
I think confusion/uncertainty is a lot if it. When he sees one tossed he spins out and drives back. I am thinking I will work on sending to pile for another few sessions to build confidence before forcing.
 
Man, this is so hard with seeing the dog, how it's been during prior training and without me asking you about 100 questions.....

In general:

When we have a hot/fast dog we need to do everything more slowly, take are time, speak softly/slowly so they don't get even more jacked up on our energy [sorry to be artsy].

If all the training is correct up to the FTP point but the dog is just cautiously slow, here's how I proceed.

With dogs that are slower/cautious/nervous/etc. we can be a lot more animated in out demeanor. I've found in general men have a harder time be animated 'cheerleaders' for their dogs.....it's just not macho/manly/etc. I guess and men tend to be more emotionally reserved. Many dogs like this respond well when we are much more enthusiastic/animated.

I always try to keep this type of dog moving......as it returns from the back pile I resend quickly from either position [cast/side] and try to to let the dog know I'm excited about its work by being animated with my voice. I cue verbally starting with running [not FTP] to the pile and really try to let the dog [any dog] knowing through the inflection in my voice I'm excited that he's looking at the pile and about to be sent. My cues are: "Sit, dead," [get them looking correctly then] "goodgoodgood...that's it!" hand goes down and then "back!"

You can try intermixing marked pile sends every 3-4 sends too, just try to make it more of an exciting game then 'work' before FTP.

I'll force em still in the cheerleader mode but making sure I slow down enough so they have their thinking caps securely on. If they aren't running well to the pile at this point I remain upbeat and let they chips fall where they may. FTP is the last of the big three yard work pressure areas [CC and FF the other two] and some dogs just don't go hard during FTP...you need to watch for the correct response to your forcing and I will force to get them out of a trot but I don't force for speed in general. Speed might be a result of force but not my objective.

I always force from the cast position first and with some slower/sensitive dogs it can help to start closer to the pile. ....most will speed up when nicked. Not all though..............

Of course collar intensity is important and you may need to move around a little bit to see what you get from different levels/durations. I've had some dogs poke on momentary but fly on continuous and just the opposite.

I don't "stick to pile" anymore with any dog. [anarchy, I know]

If the FTP trips are really slowing your dog down I we have to look at the dogs understanding of collar pressure.

You can't go wrong with running to a pile for a while again, work to get his enthusiasm up and again, watch that your is up too. None of this cheer-leading means the dog doesn't get forced, it has to, but many dogs benefit from a non-mechanical demeanor on our part.
 
I had a recent dog that was slow to the pile. I moved to another location from where I did FTP and the increase in speed was amazing. You might try that.
Or you might just accept that some dogs are just slower on blinds. Lardy makes a comment about this on his dvd when doing pilework. This is not all bad. My six yo is so fast that sometimes he gets in trouble before I can get him stopped.

IMO the ideal dog runs at about 2/3-3/4 speed on blinds than on marks.

Go to waterdogtv.com, then eclinics, then video history, then SRS, then Stuttgart, AR. Look at the dog that won that event, CHA CHA. The commentator makes a comment about her running not as fast as Lexie, a very fast dog that got into trouble on the poison bird. I think that Cha Cha was running at the ideal speed on a blind.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Thanks for all the advice. I will take it slow and work on IDing the pile with no pressure to try and get more enthusiam before going to force.

I do worry about the weather as I am in MO and it has been hot and humid and he definately shows less desire in the heat. I try to keep sessions short and do them late in the evening to get the best results.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Just a quick update on tonight's session. Very good session, kept all the commands upbeat and started about 10yds away. He showed very good response no pressure tonight. We ran two sets with about 8-9 bumpers and ended up about 20yds away. He was even starting to read my body language and turn before the back command while I was making focus on me.

I think a combination of cooler weather (at least for late June in MO) and more enthusiasm from me helped in this session. Hopefully we can keep building off of this, I know it will take te but it is nice to have a solid session.

Again thanks to all for the advice.
 
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