[Robert]

Gooser,

Talk about déjà vu for me watching that video. With the exception of the dancing feet that is my older girl Harlie to a T before I cracked down on both of us.

Same energy, very animated going about the hunt, and when things go smooth it’s a beautiful thing to watch.

As you are previously aware I pulled my hair out for two years at hunt tests before I developed an understanding of upholding a standard. When we both understood the standard it was basically smooth sailing to title out.

The young pup I have now has reaped the rewards of my former training mistakes. It’s much more relaxing and enjoyable at the line. Matter of fact a handler stopped me coming back from the line the day Harlie titled out and asked, “how do you get your dog to sit so well when the guns go off?” I laughed. If he only knew….. Therefore, like everyone else has mentioned it can be done!

Thanks for sharing the video.

P.S.

Is that Rich running the remote wingers? Good to see you guys enjoying the summer.

 

[D&S Retrievers]

Changing a 5 year old dogs bad habits can be done, we get them in for training all the time. Your problem is the same as others....you already set YOUR standards. When someone else readjusts your dogs thinking he adapts to the new rules with the new trainer. EXAMPLE....An out of control child (we've all seen them) is told to stop doing something over and over and over....blah blah blah and no adjustment is made in the childs behavior. A new adult/trainer enters into the picture( store owner...whoever) and tells the same child in a harsh voice to behave the child reacts very quickly....make sense?? The trick is to change your dogs behavior a little at a time to make sure the attitude is still ok and you don't ruin him. Our program usually takes around 6 weeks to complete..........Randy Bohn

It can be done! Our boy has been in Randy's program and it was/is amazing the results. We thought our standards were high. HAHA! That was a joke. NOW our standards are high. Don't give up.....just make the commitment to change. Right now your dog is the boss, not you.....that needs to be changed. Good luck!

 

[2tall]

Thanks Gooser! Need I say, I can relate? Looks like you have the same problems I do, your arms are too short to use your hand to send correctly!

I am 100% sure that what Randy B and others say is correct, that these dogs need to go to a pro handler and have the standards "reset". Unfortunately, that would not teach me not to make the same errors. What I want now, is another dog just like the one I have, and establish the standards early! When I started, all I heard was "never steady him young", "build drive and confidence" and yet, to "be sure formal obedience is solid" with out any idea how to go about it. Now that I have been around some good teachers, spent a LOT of time working at it, I am thoroughly enjoying training my wild boy again. I still think its too late for him to get much in trials, but what I'm learning sure will be good for the next Dragon I get.

 

[43x]

I think the first dog trainer to address this issue was Thedore Roosevelt

"SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK"

 

[DSMITH1651]

been holding my tongue for a few days but one thing that i saw that i am surprised nobody mentioned was you did not keep the transmitter in your hand. you cant correct the dog if you have to dig it out of your pocket each time. if you must shoot the gun at the line have someone run the transmitter behind you. next you gave the command but did not make the dog do it, the dog can here you and knows the commands give it once the next time should have a correction with it. make the dog obey or it doesn't get the birds third nice dog but you are in the same boat as me the handler needs work
Duane

 

[mattkm]

This gave me a behind the line view of what my dog and I must look like! All along I've been blaming "the high drive dog", and wondering what I'll do with him, but after this and the other thread about it I've come to the conclusion that it's me! The first step is admitting it I guess.
We just passed our junior and I'm worried about moving on, not about doubles and blinds, but healing, honouring and steadiness. Now, I understand you have to keep the standards high all the time in training, what I'm not sure of is how. Some people say to not give the retrieve and put them up, others say this doesn't help in the long run. When he's jacked up like the one in the video, he laughs at a healing stick, and I haven't quite raised up the collar level to where he will actually show anything more than a small twitch. But, if I use it at the same setting doing healing in the yard or other "calm" training, he would scream like a banshee. So maybe I should use a combination of all three? I have been using a platform, and working on stricter healing in the yard and around other dogs etc.
This is my first dog, and I've also thought it would be nice to just start over with a new pup and hold the standard from the start, but I think it will much more rewarding to turn this one around, then I would be that much better when the next one comes along.
Matt

 

[22899]

mattkm

GREAT QUESTIONS!!!!

I agree ! Mine laughs at a heeling stick also! or,, just has the attitude of
"Ok,, get the corrections over with,, and lets move on!"

A stong collar correction just seems to bring out more vocal at the line~~~ thats why it was in my pocket! and also seems to make her MORE amped up!

Also,, what is the correct stick coorection in you guys opinion?

Is it a stick across the rump followed by a "sit"? (makes the dog in the video creep forward)

or is it a stick acroos the chest, followed by a "sit"? (makes the dog not focus on the marks if she thinks its comming)

Thanks agin for all the discussion!

Gooser

 

[brandywinelabs]

sit whack sit correction and no retrieve.

You should probably always do this before calling for the bird when doing marks in training:
sit tap sit mark call for birds. Any unnecessary movement sit whack sit then let him sit for 5 seconds and heel him off the line making the heel tight, not loopy. Correct as necessary. Strict enforcement of OB around the line.
At a test it would just always be sit mark sit call for birds.

 

[Warren Flynt]

mattkm



Is it a stick across the rump followed by a "sit"? (makes the dog in the video creep forward)

or is it a stick acroos the chest, followed by a "sit"? (makes the dog not focus on the marks if she thinks its comming)

Thanks agin for all the discussion!

Gooser

Hey Gooser:

Im not that experienced, not nearly as much as some of the folks already giving suggestions. But.....so what if she doesnt mark the birds down? I would correct her, made very sure she sat there and was compliant, and then take her off the line. rinse and repeat as necessary.

When she sits there like a rock, with no corrections, let her get a bird. a single. I would imagine you would have to build up to multiples.

Its also hard for me to do this b/c i get to train with a group only about once a week. I like for my girl to get out there to pick up some birds. i also dont like to inconvenience the bird throwers by having reruns.

But I would use this marking scenario as an oppurtunity to work on line manners.

Just my simple opinion. She looks very talented!

Warren

 

[fishduck]

Some friendly advice from one who has walked a mile in your shoes.

1: This was obviously a training day but little if any corrections were applied. A collar correction after multiple cast refusals doesn't count.
2: You have tons of folks sitting around. Put a heeling stick in the hands of someone you trust and let them make real time corrections for the sit infractions.

With my wild heathen I would expect to have to run that particular set-up at least twice. I always instruct the bird technicians to expect a no bird after the first throw. Any movement and my "friend" applies a heeling stick and I rope and put in the box. The second time the dog does much better.

You have not set good standards in the past but are man enough to admit to mistakes. This dog can have a very bright future and has the drive and marking ability to compete at any level.

Best of luck
Mark Land

P.S. With my dog a heeling stick across the butt for the sit infraction. If that caused a creep then "HEEL" with a high burn until back into place. Then rope. No sit=no birds. Can't follow my own advice when an entry fee is at stake.

 

[mjh345]

mattkm

GREAT QUESTIONS!!!!

I agree ! Mine laughs at a heeling stick also! or,, just has the attitude of
"Ok,, get the corrections over with,, and lets move on!"




Gooser

Gooser I believe this is very accurate and telling.
Your dog probably is thinking "get your INEFFECTIVE corrections over with so I can get on with picking up my ducks."

You've got to deny this dog the duck, and in the process make it aware of the fact that it ain't it's duck, it is YOUR duck and YOU will decide whether or not it can have it based on its compliance at the line.

In the video you refer to the dog as a crack addict. That is an appropriate analogy. A crack addict will do ANYTHING to get their crack. For your dog the retrieve is the crack, and it will do ANYTHING to get the retrieve if you make it aware of what your standards are.

Remember "YOU OWN WHAT YOU CONDONE"

 

[22899]

Its also hard for me to do this b/c i get to train with a group only about once a week. I like for my girl to get out there to pick up some birds. i also dont like to inconvenience the bird throwers by having reruns.

I have fallen into this very trap many times!!!

I wanna see her pick up birds and mark!!

I have let standards slip. Even caught it on video this very day!!!

I really suck as a handler and trainer!

I also want to clarify something!

When i asked about the correction I said stick followed by "sit"

I meant to say "sit" followed by stick, followed by "sit"

so,, "sit", stick,, "sit"

But on the rump or on the chest??

Gooser

 

[mjh345]

Chest, to break the forward momentum.
As for your fear that the dog will be distracted from concentrating onthe mark, who cares if you are going to deny the retrieve?

 

[mattkm]

Its also hard for me to do this b/c i get to train with a group only about once a week. I like for my girl to get out there to pick up some birds. i also dont like to inconvenience the bird throwers by having reruns.
Warren

Me too, and the people I train with have said no problem, but I still feel like I'm waisting their time. And there's no way he'll do it when I'm on my own. The other day it was too hot to train (yes, it can happen in Canada), so I thought this will be a perfect time to not give him retrieves. So I went to a new spot, got my son to start using a call, and shooting and yelling "dog to the line" etc while we were behind a holding blind. Well the bugger healed perfect, and didn't move a muscle at the line. Luckily I had sent my son with a bumper just in case so he could get the reward and gave him tons of praise.
I don't want to attempt senior until this is perfect, so I guess the plan for me will be to get ultra strict, even (especially on) on group training days.
I also found that I have to cut out the fun bumpers.
Matt

 

[Roger Perry]

To critique a little bit, the marks were not too bad. You may have placed the hot blind too close to the middle mark thus the handle to the mark.

When you sent your dog for the blind, the dog's initial line was the same as the line she took to the middle mark which was not the line to the blind. The correct line should have been the bush on the edge of the water. It is hard to get the dog to the blind when it is so far off line. Better to handle early so big overs can be avoided. Also you may want to take a little more time lining up the dog before you send.

The dog looks like it has a lot of talent.

 

[brandywinelabs]

What Roger said. When it is time to run the blind, take your time and pick a spot 5 yards in front of the line and is on a direct line to the blind. That spot is where the dogs spine should line up on. And they then should run right over that spot. That spot takes the guess work out of looking up and down as you line your dog. It is right there and you only have to move your eyes up and down a little bit.

 

[Dogtrainer4God]

I think the first dog trainer to address this issue was Thedore Roosevelt

"SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK"

I LOVE it!!! I think that is my new all time favorite quote. Go Theo!

 

[metalone67]

Do you think maybe the issue was she had to poop? Great drive I see.

 

[KellyG]

Being a total newbie to the sport and training my first dog I have not been around alot of other trainers or handlers. How do I know what the proper "Standard" should be ? I think I know what it should be but a few others have said they thought they had a High Standard until they let another trainer work with the dog they were having an issue with.

 

[DoubleHaul]

Changing a 5 year old dogs bad habits can be done, we get them in for training all the time. Your problem is the same as others....you already set YOUR standards. When someone else readjusts your dogs thinking he adapts to the new rules with the new trainer. EXAMPLE....An out of control child (we've all seen them) is told to stop doing something over and over and over....blah blah blah and no adjustment is made in the childs behavior. A new adult/trainer enters into the picture( store owner...whoever) and tells the same child in a harsh voice to behave the child reacts very quickly....make sense?? The trick is to change your dogs behavior a little at a time to make sure the attitude is still ok and you don't ruin him. Our program usually takes around 6 weeks to complete..........Randy Bohn

I was hoping Randy would chime in on this issue. I had the opportunity to train with him for a couple of days when he was in SC and the line manners of his dogs (and the dogs of his clients who were down) was extremely impressive. These dogs were not shrinking violets either--they just knew that they had to sit until released (not just at the line but anywhere).

I have a dog that is great if he sits and watches all the birds fall, but not so much if he is creeping toward one when, so I have been working hard on this issue.

IIRC, Randy responded in the poll on heeling sticks that he never uses one. I certainly didn't see one when I was down with him.

Hopefully he will expand a little on this.