My home club has started the Amat. on Friday for the past couple years. I do not run it, I will not work it and when available will attend a competing trial.


Tim

 

This is pretty common practice now out west I believe. I am a working person and just took off an extra day to go if I wanted to run it. And it didn't affect entries at all, that I know of.

It also gives us real amateurs a chance, as there's not as much slicing and dicing if the judges have 3 days to run an All Age stake. The Open starts at 8am Friday, the Am at 9am, and the D/Q judges have all weekend too.

However, even with 3 sets of judges, there can be a problem...I have seen on more than one occasion here on the east coast guys judge the Q, then run their dog in the Derby, or vice versa. The last trial I ran, the a judge ran the Q and because he was still running in the fourth series and it was taking some time for water, the derby started late Saturday and all of us handlers were getting yelled at and hurried by the marshall because everything was about 4 hours behind schedule. Then the judges sliced in the derby because of time. Ruined the whole thing.

If you're gonna have 3 sets of judges anyway, use one set for the open, one set for the am and one set for the D/Q. IMHO judges should be focusing on putting on the trial they've volunteered to help with and not running their dogs. A good quality judge wouldn't want to compromise the stake they are judging or the rest of the stakes for that matter.

 

This is pretty common practice now out west I believe. I am a working person and just took off an extra day to go if I wanted to run it. And it didn't affect entries at all, that I know of.

It also gives us real amateurs a chance, as there's not as much slicing and dicing if the judges have 3 days to run an All Age stake. The Open starts at 8am Friday, the Am at 9am, and the D/Q judges have all weekend too. QUOTE]

So, Wiredlabz,are you saying that if all field trials started the Amateur on Friday vs. Saturday you would like it better? You must have a lot more Vacation Days available at your job than we do!

The Amateur Judges at this particular "Friday start" trial are over the top in experience and more than capable of setting up a testing situation that will get them answers without "slicing and dicing" and will have no trouble in doing it in two days. And those are the type of judges that we would appreciate being afforded the opportunity to run under.

Amateurs already have to use Vacation days on Thursdays and Fridays to "do their part" to Judge Field Trials as often as they can. We also use our Vacation days to train for and run the Nationals. Personally, if it goes in this direction, we won't have enough Vacation days to even qualify for a future National.

 

I dont like it just for the above mentioned circumstances, its bad enough that thursday is usually travel day to run the open on friday. but there are instances where my brother cant get away from the clinic and patients on friday and I would either get him started in the Open or pass it altogether. if they start the Amateur on Sat. the long term effects may be diminished Amateur fields and amateurs are the backbone/heart and soul of the retriever clubs, without them you have no game

 

I think if this became the norm, it would have a big impact on the working amateurs' ability to run. It seems like it would cut down on the number most folks can attend.

 

The idea of starting the Amatuer trial on the Saturday, and starting the Open on a Sunday is being tried by a club or two this year in Ontario. It seems like a good idea.
Going to the fourth in an Open is a pretty good excuse for an amatuer to call in sick on a Monday.

 

I like that idea much better! It certainly would be worth it - much more so than taking a Friday off and going out in the 1st. series (what a waste of a Vacation Day that is!) and it really would not matter to the Pros whether it is a Friday or a Monday for the Open. Besides, with the "Monday holiday bill" in the States, working people actually have more Monday's than Friday's off to play.

 

Jan...

How many amatuers have you judged or ran (as a handler) on Friday versus a Saturday start?

 

I don't like them at all!!! I've run 2 and judged 1. I will not judge or run another one with a Friday start!

I'm all for the clubs having the option. But, I don't think it works very well.
The same dogs are to be running two stakes at the same time. It creates too much mischief for those that want to sandbag. Especially if they are running multiple dogs. They are already plenty good at working the system.;-)

The Major stakes are both running land marks at the same time, blinds at the same time and water marks at the same time. They are both competing for the same resources at the same time and the Am really sucks the hind teat!!!
I would much rather the clubs have the option to limit the number of dogs.

 

I don't like them at all!!! I've run 2 and judged 1. I will not judge or run another one with a Friday start!

I would much rather the clubs have the option to limit the number of dogs.

Agree and the more we are willing to add days to stakes the less motivation there is change the rules to allow those options.
This was never the intent of Amateur and IMHO is bad for the sport.

Tim

 

This was never the intent of Amateur and IMHO is bad for the sport.

The Amateur was intended originally for what ? I mean way back when FTs first started.

john

 

I wasn't there but:
History of Retriever Field Trials in America in Chapter 4 refers to encouraging owners to run their own dogs after they had watched their pro.

Charles Morgan describes it as club loyalty:
" The Amateur Stake at first didn't amount to much, it was just for the boys who wanted to run their own dogs. There usually about 10 or 12 dogs entered, and maybe half of those were local dogs who were running out of loyalty to the club.....
Charles Morgan on Retrievers (p119)
Tim

 

So, Wiredlabz,are you saying that if all field trials started the Amateur on Friday vs. Saturday you would like it better? You must have a lot more Vacation Days available at your job than we do!

Is there a reason you put my screenname in bold? My name is at the bottom in the signature line you know....

And no, it's not that I have more vacation days....when I worked full time, I worked 15 hour days at the beginning of the week so that I could have Friday off and run trials.

The Amateur Judges at this particular "Friday start" trial are over the top in experience and more than capable of setting up a testing situation that will get them answers without "slicing and dicing" and will have no trouble in doing it in two days. And those are the type of judges that we would appreciate being afforded the opportunity to run under.

I have no idea what "particular" friday start you are talking about and I was not commenting on any specific Am judges. Anyone who gives up their weekend I appreciate.

Amateurs already have to use Vacation days on Thursdays and Fridays to "do their part" to Judge Field Trials as often as they can. We also use our Vacation days to train for and run the Nationals. Personally, if it goes in this direction, we won't have enough Vacation days to even qualify for a future National.[/QUOTE]

If I qualified for a National and didn't have the vacation time, I'd quit!!! :razz:

 

My club has started the AMT on Friday the last couple of years. One of our members posted that but left one very important part out,
If you cannot be there for the Friday start and call the FT committee you can run Sat. That means if the test was finished the club will set the test up for anyone who could not be there. As a 30 year judge I would much rather be able to run 1/2 or more dogs on Friday then the entire field on sat. As a judge this gives you much greater leeway on your call backs so that you can call back more of the WORKING Folks for the land blind. The biggest problem as I see it with our sport is that we forget the people that make our sport possible. THE AMT!

 

My club has started the AMT on Friday the last couple of years. One of our members posted that but left one very important part out,
If you cannot be there for the Friday start and call the FT committee you can run Sat. That means if the test was finished the club will set the test up for anyone who could not be there. !

You must be posting on your premium a Saturday start with the condition that if the entry exceeds "X" you will start on Friday. Although allowed this in effect negates the draw for the first series. It will interesting how long this exist before it is challenged.

A premium stating a Friday Amat start can not allow a handler the option as to which day to run.

BTW agree!
The biggest problem as I see it with our sport is that we forget the people that make our sport possible. THE AMT![/QUOTE]


Tim

 

Hi Karen, wiredlabz.
Were you at the ARC fall FT? Did you run a dog in derby and the open?

 

Yeah. It was Luke's first derby. But I think I ran the Am, not the Open. I can't afford to double stake both AA dogs anymore, so I think I just ran the Am, but I can't remember...fall seems forever ago!

 

What about the beginning AM's who take a day off to work at the trial? I figure if there are those who can do that, then the ones who really want to run the dog will take the day off and run.. Of course, ours starts on Sunday... Open on Friday...

 

I think the point is that a significant portion of Amateurs run 10-15 trials per year. If the "working" Amateurs have to take that many days off then that will generally exceed what time they are allowed to take off from work.

I do not believe that starting the Amateur on Friday is good for the sport and have expressed that view to the two clubs in my area that do it.

 

I got no problem with a club starting their amatuer stake on Friday.

If that is what they want to do, it's THEIR club, they are inviting participants to run THEIR trial.

I've never understood why contestants have a beef about anothers trial.

It's like a group of folks inviting you and whoever wants to come from the neighborhood for dinner.

Are you gonna complain about the food served? Are you gonna be pissed at the folks for setting a 5:00pm serving time and you have to work until 6:00pm?

If you don't like it, you probably wont go next time right? If you have to work you probably won't show up right?

If Aycock charges $150 for their Open and you don't like it, don't enter. Seems simple to me.

I don't get it I guess. What does any club owe me or anyone else?

Only thing that the club has to do while putting on a FT is stay within the AKC rulebook and please it's members.

Of course, all of this "club" talk can be debated as well.

 

KEN
These are very, very good points. I like the part about if you don't like it don't go. I believe that if we had more people training and less BIT?!ing we would have a lot more FUN. I love training my dogs and as a very wise man once told me YOU ALWAYS FIND TIME TO DO THE THINGS YOU REALLY WANT TO DO.
Again great reply!

 

I would hope that clubs might consider what is best for the future of field trials. This should be a event that welcomes the next generation not only caters to the last. I may be off base on this one but I can see very few good reasons to have a friday Amature. There are better ways of handling large entries than discouraging the working individuals trying to compete in a game dominated by the retired or other wise cared for few. From what I can tell There is only one trial that qualifies as a large entry in this group.


Red River 87
Montgomery 43
Cape Fear 43
Phoenix 24
PRTA Corning, Ca 56
California south coast 60
________
Digital Volcano Vaporizer For Under 200.00

 

I would hope that clubs might consider what is best for the future of field trials. This should be a event that welcomes the next generation not only caters to the last. I may be off base on this one but I can see very few good reasons to have a friday Amature. There are better ways of handling large entries than discouraging the working individuals trying to compete in a game dominated by the retired or other wise cared for few. From what I can tell There is only one trial that qualifies as a large entry in this group.


Red River 87
Montgomery 43
Cape Fear 43
Phoenix 24
PRTA Corning, Ca 56
California south coast 60

I resemble that retired remark. But I think I also worked 30 years to be able to do this. Oh, and by the way I worked for a living while trialing and working at trials.
Obviously you were not running trials in California when 100 dog Open's and 85-90 Ams where the norm. Having worked many CA trials I can tell you, it ain't no fun. Lot of those clubs started with Friday Ams just to get them done. Seems to me that they didn't go back to Sat Ams for what ever reasons when the entries dropped off. I think they should have if for nothing else to save a money on judges expenses. After clubs have been doing this for a while it gets to be a regularity, and they forgot why they did it in the first place. Plus there is a lot that put on trials and don't want to work that hard anymore. So those of you who want to play, must pay.

 

I think that the attitude that the "has never worked a real job in his life" and "retired" guys have is very selfish and very elitest. This says to the regular Joe "we only want the rich or retired" to attend our trial. What's next? A trial where the Amateur stake is run on Tues and Thurs and if you guys don't like the driving back and forth it's just too bad because it's no problem for us retired guys in the club that live around here. (Of course, this is an exaggeration, but stranger things have happened when you put the "it's my trial and I'll eliminate who I want to" crowd in charge).

I would rather have a fair, well-placed, hard "money bird" in the first series on a Saturday that only half the field picks up. At least you get a chance to play your cards. Or, I would rather have the fourth series go over on Monday where only a few have to "call in sick". Nothing is worse than having to "burn" a vacation day on Friday, only to go out in the first series and have nothing to do but think about it all weekend long!

If you have to work for a living, you can have your Pro run your dog in every other stake, but he can't run the Amateur first series for you! All I am saying is that you can mess around with the other stakes, but the Amateur Stake needs to be left alone and easily accessible for every "regular" person to run, instead of turning it into an "Elitist" Amateur Stake. This is the wrong direction to go for the future IMHO.

 

Amateur Stake needs to be left alone and easily accessible for every "regular" person to run, instead of turning it into an "Elitist" Amateur Stake. This is the wrong direction to go for the future IMHO.

Jan, with all due respect, "regular" folks don't spend thousands and thousands of dollars traveling all across the country to pick up dead birds with their dogs.

"Regular" people don't spend more thousands and thousands of dollars to have their dogs professionally trained solely for the purpose of competition.

"Regular" poeple don't spend 40+ weekends a year with their dogs in some pasture in front of 2 people with a book trying to make doodle-art.

This game is not dealing with "regular" people. This game is dealing with people who have extreme passion for either dogs, competition, or social desires. Regular folks don't play this game. Regular folks are at church on Sunday morning versus standing with wet boots whispering about the stupid water marks the judges are setting up.

A regular person would simply chalk the Friday start trial as one they'll skip since they only run 4-5 trials a year anyway.

Again, I still don't get it.

A club should be a group of folks organizing events that best suit their needs. If the club determines their needs are better met by having a Friday amatuer start, who are we to tell them how to run their club?

 

I belong to a club that runs a Fri Amat. It does two things, it scrambles the running order to hell in the amateur, and instead of giving the judges 3 days so they don't have to slice and dice, it seems to just give them a day off on sunday. It also means dogs running multiple stakes can get very little time off between series.

 

Ken,

We are definitely crazy, especially when it comes to our dogs, but by "regular" I am referring to "working" people that have to work M-F in order to play at the sport that they enjoy. But even when we do retire, I will not want to eliminate the competition by making trials inexcessible to "working" local people.

We have a highly competitive dog now (we may not have one when we retire!) and we would like to be able to run her at our local trials. We don't like to be forced out of trials in our area and be made to drive twice or three times as far elsewhere in order to run her. There has got to be a better method than this particular one to reduce numbers.

 

Ken,

We are definately crazy, especially when it comes to our dogs, but by "regular" I am referring to "working" people that have to work M-F in order to play at the sport that they enjoy. But even when we do retire, I will not want to eliminate the competition by making trials inexcessible to "working" local people.

We have a highly competitive dog now (we may not have one when we retire!) and we would like to be able to run her at our local trials. We don't like to be forced out of trials in our area and be made to drive twice or three times as far elsewhere in order to run her. There has got to be a better method than this particular one to reduce numbers. Wouldn't moving the other stakes around (that you could hire a Pro to run your dog in) work just as well?

Jan,

You can have one or the other.........

"What's best for the sport"

or

"Hire a pro to run your dog".

You can't have both.

 

Ken,

Why can't you have it both ways? Not trying to be a smart a**, just trying to understand. I am new to this sport and this forum, so be gentle. Yes Jan, that is Lacie.

Just a Regular guy.

 

Why not allow a trial to run over till Monday? Keep a Saturday start and if it rolls into Monday then it does - this way only a portion of the handlers may have to take Monday off......to me that makes better sense.

I too HATE Friday starts on Ams. When my dog is home I run Opens so it becomes a moot point, but in principle alone I HATE Friday Am starts......

FOM

 

What is best for our sport is always open, accessible to all, healthy competition just like in all other sports.

We just need to always get "Cream of the Crop" judges (we have them, you just need to ask them years in advance) and bring on the hard, but fair, test and let the test sort 'em out! It can be done and we have all seen it - and those are the most fun to run (and watch).

I don't think that deporting the "snowbirds" will ever be legal so we have to come up with something that doesn't hurt the "locals" because that is who this method is hurting.

 

I prefer the Saturday start but would like the option to carry over till Monday if necessary. Fewer people would be impacted and as long as you have six contestants you have enough people to man gunstations. So no large contingent of help would be required. But I agree with Ken, it's an individual club descision and if you don't like, don't run it.

 

I prefer a Friday at noon start if entries exceed 65. That is what i will continue to list in our premium assuming the judges are ok with it. If you can't get off on Friday, show up on Saturday and run. The AM first series will be done by noon on Saturday and everyone should be happy.

This whole Friday start thing has to do with picking the lesser evil. Which is worse... penalizing 10 people who could not get off on Friday, or penalizing the entire field because of what judges have to do to complete a 90 dog AM in 2 days. Sucks either way, but a 90 dog AM in 2 days sucks worse IMO.

SM

 

I understand both sides of the problem but think that Shayne's idea is the best. Everybody that can run Friday run, if not then be there Sat. am. I drive atleast four hours to EVERY trial. I love running field trials but this is getting too hard.

 

What if "whats best for the sport" is to leave things as they are and have been for years.

signed traditionalist regards