[Todd Caswell]

I would expect to be dinged for train-ability for pretty much any unnecessary movement as it relates to steadiness. Following the gun/handler, if necessary would be a positive in my mind. I don't think it's necessary very often even with 180 degrees between marks, but if it was for some reason then I think its' a good thing, as long as it's under control. Butt up, pattering feet, vocalization.. all dings

For the most part ( at least in the FT world) your most likely never going to get dinged at all for lifting the butt, happy feet or a little noise, seen alot of bad creepers win. All depends on the judges.

 

[lostdog]

Would love the procedure for the 180 degree drill.

thx

 

[RookieTrainer]

I would expect to be dinged for train-ability for pretty much any unnecessary movement as it relates to steadiness. Following the gun/handler, if necessary would be a positive in my mind. I don't think it's necessary very often even with 180 degrees between marks, but if it was for some reason then I think its' a good thing, as long as it's under control. Butt up, pattering feet, vocalization.. all dings

I see your logic, but now define "unnecessary movement". If you would define it as you would appear to in the post quoted above I suspect you would end up on many "do not run" lists and probably for good reason. For one example, how would you know that I have not basically decided to allow some energy to come out (moving feet) to avoid an actual break?

 

[Miriam Wade]

I would expect to be dinged for train-ability for pretty much any unnecessary movement as it relates to steadiness. Following the gun/handler, if necessary would be a positive in my mind. I don't think it's necessary very often even with 180 degrees between marks, but if it was for some reason then I think its' a good thing, as long as it's under control. Butt up, pattering feet, vocalization.. all dings

Would you still ding the dog if he marks the lights out of the marks? I would hate to see a dog dinged for what you describe if he is a great marking dog & tractable on blinds. You, to me, are describing animation not unsteadiness. I am not a fan of a dog who vocalizes, but that needs to be judged as to what extent it's out of control. I could redeem a dog for "little things" if the whole package says this is a dog who, based especially upon superior marking, deserves to be rising to the top of the list of dogs I want to see in the next series.

M

 

[Rainmaker]

For the most part ( at least in the FT world) your most likely never going to get dinged at all for lifting the butt, happy feet or a little noise, seen alot of bad creepers win. All depends on the judges.

Considering what I've seen in HT, not too much dinging going on there either. ;-)

 

[J Gjerpe]

IMO the only absolute in dog training is that the trainers that have many absolutes - absolutely can not read dogs and adapt their training (-:

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Would you still ding the dog if he marks the lights out of the marks? I would hate to see a dog dinged for what you describe if he is a great marking dog & tractable on blinds. You, to me, are describing animation not unsteadiness. I am not a fan of a dog who vocalizes, but that needs to be judged as to what extent it's out of control. I could redeem a dog for "little things" if the whole package says this is a dog who, based especially upon superior marking, deserves to be rising to the top of the list of dogs I want to see in the next series.

M

But if the butt comes up, paws moving & the dog creeps versus a dog that doesn't & that dog smacks the marks which dog do you want? Sit means sit. IMO Wish my dog would behave. We are working on it!

 

[Rainmaker]

I see your logic, but now define "unnecessary movement". If you would define it as you would appear to in the post quoted above I suspect you would end up on many "do not run" lists and probably for good reason. For one example, how would you know that I have not basically decided to allow some energy to come out (moving feet) to avoid an actual break?

Exactly. I don't know too many judges that anal that are noting every movement on line. Has to be annoying to get attention, be it noise, the handler saying sit or heel a hundred times, that sort of thing, and even then, if the dog does good marks and blinds and is otherwise acceptable, hasn't committed a D/Q fault, it is likely not going to get dropped for ticky tacky little line stuff. Judges noting a butt lift or feet patter? Not likely. Not at the myriad of HT and minor stakes I've run over the years anyway.

 

[Rainmaker]

IMO the only absolute in dog training is that the trainers that have many absolutes - absolutely can not read dogs and adapt their training (-:

Very good.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

NFC handled by Dave Rorem, Two Rivers Willie or something like that, was in my opinion, was a mess at the line but smacked the marks and won the championship. I didn't see the score sheets but I doubt if he got dinged any given the level of competition.
I didn't see it in person but it was on video. It is still probably available.

Edit: Two River's Lucky Willie, NFC 2008.

 

[DarrinGreene]

For the most part ( at least in the FT world) your most likely never going to get dinged at all for lifting the butt, happy feet or a little noise, seen alot of bad creepers win. All depends on the judges.

Me to but... if I expect to get dinged and don't... then I train to a higher standard

A dog that sits rock steady with no movement at all in training isn't likely so perfect on the line in a trial so... if I'm only going to get 80% of my standard, my standard better be good!

As long as we stay in balance and don't hurt marking over perfect steadiness, that is

 

[Ahooge]

So steadiness is only directly related to the sit command? Or in some people cases sit and stay? The whole reason I asked was I was doing some light reading on different dog trainers websites and as you all have also stated that steadiness is in the sit. I have found this quite odd. So of course I went to the dictionary. Definition #2 states "even or regular in movement." Now things are brewing in my brain and I'm starting to think that steadiness is not just in "sit" but rather in all aspects of your dog. The blind retrieve, the marked retrieve and anything else you teach your dog. Its not just about steadiness but about your standereds and expectations for how you want your dog to preform the task given to them. I saw in a previous post that some one had mentioned lardy hillman and another and what each one expects. Even tho it only mentions sit I think that a prime example of the expectations of difdrwnt trainers. I think there is a wealth of information in the thread and thank all of you for commenting.

 

[RookieTrainer]

You have to read your dog to know how far to go, but through long, painful experience I can tell you it is no fun to walk to the line, smack the test, and go out because sit does not mean sit on the honor. The only thing less fun is about a year's worth of rehab and still holding your breath. A lot.

If your dog is really birdy, you might get a long way down the road by simply denying birds when there is movement at the line. You should also be fully aware as Darrin alluded to that you are only going to get a percentage of your training standard at a test or trial, so your training standard needs to match your dog's desire. I have to keep my thumb on mine on this issue, but your dog may be significantly different.

Here's a good place to talk about balance, which Darrin also mentioned. This is admittedly about as helpful as being told to read your dog (at least until you have some experience), but you have to keep everything in balance. I saw this in my rehab process, and it was on purpose because I had already messed up, but my dog's marking started to suffer when he got real concerned about not moving at the line - and I mean moving forward. He was telling me we were out of balance to the obedience side, just like he had told me we were out of balance to the "go, go, go" side when he started moving forward and disregarding me, only I was too inexperienced to see the former until it was too late.

You hear "sit means sit", which means the dog should sit when you say sit and keep his butt on the ground regardless of what else is going on. But you will also learn that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that may need to be retired to pet status or rehomed. Both of those are true at he same time, as ridiculous as that may sound. You want your dog to listen, sure, but he still has 4 legs and a tail.

Good luck with your pup.

So steadiness is only directly related to the sit command? Or in some people cases sit and stay? The whole reason I asked was I was doing some light reading on different dog trainers websites and as you all have also stated that steadiness is in the sit. I have found this quite odd. So of course I went to the dictionary. Definition #2 states "even or regular in movement." Now things are brewing in my brain and I'm starting to think that steadiness is not just in "sit" but rather in all aspects of your dog. The blind retrieve, the marked retrieve and anything else you teach your dog. Its not just about steadiness but about your standereds and expectations for how you want your dog to preform the task given to them. I saw in a previous post that some one had mentioned lardy hillman and another and what each one expects. Even tho it only mentions sit I think that a prime example of the expectations of difdrwnt trainers. I think there is a wealth of information in the thread and thank all of you for commenting.

 

[Ahooge]

Being a newer to training I have seen my pup go through his imbalance pace. So I took a step back reassesed what was going on adjusted and went back at it. Strange how screwy things can get she your pups training is out of balance

Thanks for the insight

You have to read your dog to know how far to go, but through long, painful experience I can tell you it is no fun to walk to the line, smack the test, and go out because sit does not mean sit on the honor. The only thing less fun is about a year's worth of rehab and still holding your breath. A lot.

If your dog is really birdy, you might get a long way down the road by simply denying birds when there is movement at the line. You should also be fully aware as Darrin alluded to that you are only going to get a percentage of your training standard at a test or trial, so your training standard needs to match your dog's desire. I have to keep my thumb on mine on this issue, but your dog may be significantly different.

Here's a good place to talk about balance, which Darrin also mentioned. This is admittedly about as helpful as being told to read your dog (at least until you have some experience), but you have to keep everything in balance. I saw this in my rehab process, and it was on purpose because I had already messed up, but my dog's marking started to suffer when he got real concerned about not moving at the line - and I mean moving forward. He was telling me we were out of balance to the obedience side, just like he had told me we were out of balance to the "go, go, go" side when he started moving forward and disregarding me, only I was too inexperienced to see the former until it was too late.

You hear "sit means sit", which means the dog should sit when you say sit and keep his butt on the ground regardless of what else is going on. But you will also learn that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that may need to be retired to pet status or rehomed. Both of those are true at he same time, as ridiculous as that may sound. You want your dog to listen, sure, but he still has 4 legs and a tail.

Good luck with your pup.

 

[Todd Caswell]

Exactly. I don't know too many judges that anal that are noting every movement on line. Has to be annoying to get attention, be it noise, the handler saying sit or heel a hundred times, that sort of thing, and even then, if the dog does good marks and blinds and is otherwise acceptable, hasn't committed a D/Q fault, it is likely not going to get dropped for ticky tacky little line stuff. Judges noting a butt lift or feet patter? Not likely. Not at the myriad of HT and minor stakes I've run over the years anyway.

I think if judges paid more attention to line manners, people would either put more effort into fixing the problem or quit running the really bad ones, Iv'e dropped 2 dogs for poor line manners , one was excessive creeping, the other was WAY to many Heel's , and have dropped 2 dogs for noise as well, I don't mind a yip when being sent but I don't like noise in the holding blind or when the birds are going down. I evaluate noise by asking myself would I want to sit in a duck blind with this dog, if it bothers me enough to think about it then it's probably to much.

 

[RookieTrainer]

Todd, would you say that most dogs with really bad line manners will eventually take themselves out? Which is what you would rather have happen as a judge, right?

I would also think that line manners that would call for being dropped solely for that are like that old saw about pornography - you kinda know it when you see it.

I think if judges paid more attention to line manners, people would either put more effort into fixing the problem or quit running the really bad ones, Iv'e dropped 2 dogs for poor line manners , one was excessive creeping, the other was WAY to many Heel's , and have dropped 2 dogs for noise as well, I don't mind a yip when being sent but I don't like noise in the holding blind or when the birds are going down. I evaluate noise by asking myself would I want to sit in a duck blind with this dog, if it bothers me enough to think about it then it's probably to much.

 

[Im_with_Brandy]

It is all about your expectations and consistency. I run a dog that is to short to see over my knees when I am on the bucket so I allow her to move as she needs to see the marks. I also expect her to turn with me when I push pull at the line. I do accept that the dog may need to move to see the mark. Once I am certain that the dog understands sit i won't ask for it anymore the dog just won't be rewarded unless it self sits and waits for a release. It won't come out of its crate or eat its dinner until it self sits. Marks won't be launched until it self sits. I always praise the self sits so the dog knows that it made a good choice.

 

[Todd Caswell]

Todd, would you say that most dogs with really bad line manners will eventually take themselves out? Which is what you would rather have happen as a judge, right?

I would also think that line manners that would call for being dropped solely for that are like that old saw about pornography - you kinda know it when you see it.

I think so to both of your comments, but it's not only about being dropped but if you carry that really bad mannered dog and then they hammer the last series, now what??
I learned something from a really good judge a few years ago, put a sign in the last holding blind that reads "dog must be touching mat for ALL sends" that way you don't have to tell then to reheel, and instructions are pretty black and white. Have had a couple that never got the dog back on the mat.

 

[Todd Caswell]

It is all about your expectations and consistency. I run a dog that is to short to see over my knees when I am on the bucket so I allow her to move as she needs to see the marks. I also expect her to turn with me when I push pull at the line. I do accept that the dog may need to move to see the mark. Once I am certain that the dog understands sit i won't ask for it anymore the dog just won't be rewarded unless it self sits and waits for a release. It won't come out of its crate or eat its dinner until it self sits. Marks won't be launched until it self sits. I always praise the self sits so the dog knows that it made a good choice.

Between sitting on a bucket and the wide swings you see at a HRC test it makes it hard for a dog to keep it's body planted only moving it's head and still see the marks.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Would you still ding the dog if he marks the lights out of the marks? I would hate to see a dog dinged for what you describe if he is a great marking dog & tractable on blinds. You, to me, are describing animation not unsteadiness. I am not a fan of a dog who vocalizes, but that needs to be judged as to what extent it's out of control. I could redeem a dog for "little things" if the whole package says this is a dog who, based especially upon superior marking, deserves to be rising to the top of the list of dogs I want to see in the next series.

M

Marking, train-ability and style are separate marks on the sheet Miriam, so yes, I would have a lower train-ability score and a high marking (and potentially style) score.

To me, steadiness (or the lack there of) and the ability to be "relaxed" on-line is indicative of a dog's blind manners. If you've ever been in a blind all day with a dog that has poor manners, you know how much of an annoyance that is, regardless of how well he may mark.

Train-ability encompasses the overall willingness of the dog to work with the handler, so if there is excellent control on blinds this certainly plays into the overall score.

Level of competition/testing matters also. If it's a JH that would be significantly different than a MH, as a derby would be different than an Open.

Being a HT guy remember something else... there is a possible 10 here and a "ding" doesn't mean the dog isn't getting a 7 or 8, it just means he's not getting a perfect score.