[22899]

When you claim dogs thrown marks and are never handled are you sure these aren't just young dogs needing help and haven't yet been taught to handle? I believe you'll find many trainers...pro and amatuer...will handle on marks in their training while teaching a concept etc. But this is usually reserved for dogs that are well established in their knowledge and have been taught for some time.

Yes Bill you are correct!. If teaching a concept like a point, or fighting a side hill with suction to the gunner ect,, then yes, they will handle.
What I'm talkin about is a dog in training that has been presented a bird, and may not have marked it well. It may go deep, or pull up short, especially if we are running singles off multiple guns,like one of the Pro's in your area, showed our club one day. In those instances, the dog ONLY gets help from the gun, NEVER a handle, then moves on to the next mark.

I think for a hunt test dog, I have a perty darned good marker with Bailey. You have seen her at HRC tests struggle, but that struggle with her marking, comes from her inability to swing well with the gun. If she is presented birds ala AKC, where she sits at the line, gets an attention getting call or a shot for the flyer,, She rarely has a big hunt. This is what I,m sayin about makin sure the dog gets a fair chance to SEE the birds its thrown, if your REALLY testing marking.(IF marking is of primary importance)

You'll never get any of the hunt testing organizations to concur...they all adopted the AKC FT line concerning marking is of 'paramount importance', which it is when viewing a dogs inherent attributes over it's trained abilities; and certainly is when viewed as possible breeding stock. But for obtaining the best hunting dog, teaching singles, control, FF, switch-proofing, and handling are far superior to the need for the dog to mark a triple or quad.


I guess this is where I start to get confused with the different organiztions. I KNOW they are different,, And I have to learn the various aspects to run each game,, But,, to ME marking SHOULD be the same.
HRC, AKC, Field trials. It seems we just ADD things Like swinging with the gun, hidden gunners, Attention getting calls or shots, flyers, extream distances, ect. Ya just have to train for what each venue adds. BUT the act of MARKING I feel should be the same, and I PERSONALLY dont believe very much handling on them SHOULD be allowed, or at the very least be severly penalised as stated by labguy.

I dont think it very fair sometimes that a dog like Carpenters or your Bull that has run countless tests, seen perty much evrthing that an organization can throw at them and has a record of passing most all of it has the same TITLE as the dog like my Bailey that has seen just a few tests, prolly got lucky on a couple and has just a few HUNDRED points.
There is no comparison to the two types of dogs,, but on papaer they are equal.

The more I get involved with this the more I start to understand the concept of competion. With true competion, if your dog that day, sits and MARKS all three birds,make crisp clean retrieves with no aid from you, and the other dogs that run that day, dont do that nice a job,, well I think your gonna be rightly rewarded.

I couldnt compete with Roux, or Bull, but I could try! and maybe ONE day, I might just sneak a little luck and do a better job. That would mean much more to me than just havin a title that says I ran a few tests that adhered to a standard, and didnt compare dog to dog. ( not to mention that I think that standard becomes watered down sometimes)

Its too bad that we dont have an organization that is competion based, but adheres to real hunting type distances with marks and blinds.

Gooser

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Good dang thing you don't run the SRS.

Tackett's crew sees it differently

Just saying regards

Bubba

Now bubba, you know better. Don't speak of things you don't know....

/Paul

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

When you claim dogs thrown marks and are never handled are you sure these aren't just young dogs needing help and haven't yet been taught to handle? I believe you'll find many trainers...pro and amatuer...will handle on marks in their training while teaching a concept etc. But this is usually reserved for dogs that are well established in their knowledge and have been taught for some time.

Yes Bill you are correct!. If teaching a concept like a point, or fighting a side hill with suction to the gunner ect,, then yes, they will handle.
What I'm talkin about is a dog in training that has been presented a bird, and may not have marked it well. It may go deep, or pull up short, especially if we are running singles off multiple guns,like one of the Pro's in your area, showed our club one day. In those instances, the dog ONLY gets help from the gun, NEVER a handle, then moves on to the next mark.

I think for a hunt test dog, I have a perty darned good marker with Bailey. You have seen her at HRC tests struggle, but that struggle with her marking, comes from her inability to swing well with the gun. If she is presented birds ala AKC, where she sits at the line, gets an attention getting call or a shot for the flyer,, She rarely has a big hunt. This is what I,m sayin about makin sure the dog gets a fair chance to SEE the birds its thrown, if your REALLY testing marking.(IF marking is of primary importance)

You'll never get any of the hunt testing organizations to concur...they all adopted the AKC FT line concerning marking is of 'paramount importance', which it is when viewing a dogs inherent attributes over it's trained abilities; and certainly is when viewed as possible breeding stock. But for obtaining the best hunting dog, teaching singles, control, FF, switch-proofing, and handling are far superior to the need for the dog to mark a triple or quad.


I guess this is where I start to get confused with the different organiztions. I KNOW they are different,, And I have to learn the various aspects to run each game,, But,, to ME marking SHOULD be the same.
HRC, AKC, Field trials. It seems we just ADD things Like swinging with the gun, hidden gunners, Attention getting calls or shots, flyers, extream distances, ect. Ya just have to train for what each venue adds. BUT the act of MARKING I feel should be the same, and I PERSONALLY dont believe very much handling on them SHOULD be allowed, or at the very least be severly penalised as stated by labguy.

I dont think it very fair sometimes that a dog like Carpenters or your Bull that has run countless tests, seen perty much evrthing that an organization can throw at them and has a record of passing most all of it has the same TITLE as the dog like my Bailey that has seen just a few tests, prolly got lucky on a couple and has just a few HUNDRED points.
There is no comparison to the two types of dogs,, but on papaer they are equal.

The more I get involved with this the more I start to understand the concept of competion. With true competion, if your dog that day, sits and MARKS all three birds,make crisp clean retrieves with no aid from you, and the other dogs that run that day, dont do that nice a job,, well I think your gonna be rightly rewarded.

I couldnt compete with Roux, or Bull, but I could try! and maybe ONE day, I might just sneak a little luck and do a better job. That would mean much more to me than just havin a title that says I ran a few tests that adhered to a standard, and didnt compare dog to dog. ( not to mention that I think that standard becomes watered down sometimes)

Its too bad that we dont have an organization that is competion based, but adheres to real hunting type distances with marks and blinds.

Gooser

Now Gooser, as I have read through this thread the first things that comes to mind in your scenario is this. Your wanting to focus on the bird that fell and is it a mark if the dog didn't see it. You should be focused on, "my dog failed because he didn't sit and watch all the marks." He failed right there and because of that you have to change the mark into a blind. If you really believe what you just wrote, instead of teaching your dog "go as sent lining tricks" you'll watch your dog during all your tests and if he doesn't watch the birds or know where the birds are, you pull him. If you truly believe what you just wrote, then if you have to whistle on a mark, then your only whistle will be a come in whistle, because your dog failed the mark. Might not be a lot of meat on the table unless that dog learns to watch all the marks....

/Paul

 

[Bubba]

Now bubba, you know better. Don't speak of things you don't know....

/Paul

Hey ya never know whats biting unless you put some bait in the water. Besides, speaking of that which I do not know is a favorite passtime.:razz:

And regardless of what Tellus says handling early and often is a SRS tradition.

Back to fishing regards

Bubba

 

[22899]

Paul

My remarks about just traing a dog to go as sent and fake the true marking part of a test was a bit tounge in cheek. I said it because of most of the replys had stated that as a Judge you give the benifit of the doubt to the dog,cuase your not sure the dog saw the mark or not. ANNND,, if the rules alow a crisp handle,, you cant really penalise unless its severe.

if I run a test,, you can bet I'm gonna try and use the rule book as much as possible. Hrc,,well ya can talk to the dog when the birds are shown, You can command while swinging with the gun. I defininatly need that leiiency to get my dog a pass,,so.,, I'll use the rule.

In AKC ya better keep you mouth shut,(Hard fer me)BUT,, they give the dog every opportunity to see the marks, and per the rules will penalise for excessive handling. I'm perty sure more than 1 handle in a Master or even some Senior tests will get ya dumped,, I could be wrong. To ME PERSONALLY they adhere to the saying "Marking is of primary importance."
while HRC (I FEEL) is looking at defining a well rounded huntin dog and a team player.

In training, If my dog doesnt sit and mark the birds at the line,, She wont get sent for the retrieve. If we get good line manners(dont hold yer breath) and I believe she marked the birds I'll pull the trigger,and she'll get sent,BUT I wont handle at all if she has trouble. I'll get help from the guns, and MAYBE repete the mark-- Maybe.

My hole point to this discussion is that IMHDAO,, a dog that didnt see the mark(as long as it was a fair chance) and then had to be handled,,,and ,,IMHDAO,,, dropping your hand and lining the dog to the mark is a handle, then that dog that miserable day failed its marking test! The dog is basically running a blind retrieve. Its sposed to be showing a Judge it marked the fall of a bird----It just didnt

There have been a few HRC tests where I should have pulled my dog at the line because she was just a bit#$,,, I didnt,, got lucky a couple times ,,and got the boot a couple others!!


Gooser

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Hey ya never know whats biting unless you put some bait in the water. Besides, speaking of that which I do not know is a favorite passtime.:razz:

And regardless of what Tellus says handling early and often is a SRS tradition.

Back to fishing regards

Bubba

The only venue where handling will kill ya is a FT. The dogs that win typically don't handle much, too many penalty points. Gots to keep mind that SRS is about evaluating the handler as much as the dog, vs other venue's where your evaluating the dog and that stinkin handler is just there to screw that up....


/paul

 

[22899]

vs other venue's where your evaluating the dog and that stinkin handler is just there to screw that up....



THAT describes us perty much to a "T".


Gooser

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Hey gooser, we're waiting for this years stupid question of the year....


/Paul