[cakaiser]

Let me express it in another way.
In the first place if I'm wrong, why do you use it???

The simple answer to that question is, because it allows us to train dogs to advanced levels that most feel are not possible without the right tools.

If you don't understand the kind of work a competive AA dog is required to do, then you can't really understand why.

If it's possible to be successful in Germany without a collar, great. IMHO, waste of time and money to run US trials without a collar trained dog.

By the way, "doping" is not allowed on weekends, dogs run without collars.

 

[Doug Main]

correct ian!!!!!!!!

and I go even further (sorry german as well )

I NEVER would use a stud, if I would know he is trained FF or electric
I NEVER would buy a dog out of such parents
...............
and I go even further, what will remain of our labradors, when they can only be trained for succssesful competing with FF and electric

I am born 1962 (so after the 2. world war, and after Bismark)

lg evelyn

It's your loss!!!!!

It is really funny what the difference between the myth and reality really is. The Myth of the type of dogs would be selected with e-collar training vs the reality of what is actually occurring. The consensus of all the old timers (those that were training dogs before the e-collar) is that today's FT dogs are MUCH more sensitive and intelligent than the FT dogs before the e-collar. ;-)

 

[Guest]

correct ian!!!!!!!!

and I go even further (sorry german as well:razz: )

I NEVER would use a stud, if I would know he is trained FF or electric
I NEVER would buy a dog out of such parents
...............
and I go even further, what will remain of our labradors, when they can only be trained for succssesful competing with FF and electric;-)

I am born 1962 (so after the 2. world war, and after Bismark)

lg evelyn

Evelyn, what do you feel is the general agreement about what is so terrible about e-collars and force fetch? Do people feel they are "hurting" the dog? Do they feel they break the dog's spirit? What does it really come down to?

I'm asking because if you met my dogs and watched them work, WITH NO KNOWLEDGE of how I trained them... And they ran well, and happy. And they were excited to work. And, moreover, they were affectionate and personable... How would you feel about my dogs? And what difference would it make they they are trained with FF and ecollar?

Because FF and ecollar CERTAINLY don't give a dog a good, sweet temperament. They certainly don't teach a dog how to mark well and retrieve happily... So what's so bad about them if the dog is still a happy, driven, well-trained dog?

Thanks in advance for your response.

-Kristie

 

[cakaiser]

Yes, the myth of the robotic, push button, forced FT dog.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

I think the collar is why you see so many more good females these days, it allows for far more sensitive types to be trained.

 

[Alec Sparks]

Whoh very nice and polite reply. Please excuse us Germans for not beeing able to focus. But than please explain us why do you need force fetching than???? If your retrievers have this natural ability????
I have tried to understand this for about 2 years now. Especially after reading books by Amy Dahl and Robert Milner. I think those books are exceptional and very well written. (And both of them don´t talk much about the e-collar in their books).
Really my opinion is also that your American Dogs don´t need FF. I think it was developed by somebody some time ago and it makes things easier. The person training the dog has to think less about the mentality of the dog (Except in some rare cases like this Chessy trained by Kristie Wilder right now. By the way I´m deeply impressed by her).
You just have to follow the program and nothing can happen. But I´m not sure that it is really necessary. But thats only my poor German opinion.

Whoh very nice and polite reply.

That's what the "winky eye" thing was for......I was being sarcastic.

"Focus" was a joke about keeping on the subject at hand, FF pressure, not hashing out the FF/collars are evil topic ......again.

I think it was developed by somebody some time ago and it makes things easier. [/qoute]

I'm not sure how being able to both understand, master and apply a complex process like FF or CC makes "things easier". Skilled American trainers not only know how to train a dog without FF and CC they also know how to train both of those [somewhat tricky] concepts.

Reading a dog dealing with pressure [mental and physical] takes more skill the reading a dog not under pressure IMO. That opinion is based on reading dog [both under pressure and not under pressure] for a living for the past 17 years.


As much as many people think, pressure is not the enemy of training, pressure that is not understood by the dog or is over zealously or misapplied is the enemy. The vast majority of dogs thrive on a training program that includes both mental and physical pressure.

Of course if you have no actual experience with this concept/result and are swayed by emotional arguments, then it's unlikely you'll ever understand.

 

[crackerd]

Think the Germans also have concerns about Einstein's Theory of E-Collarivity--that dogs trained with the collar genetically perpetuate electrons (and protons) for succeeding generations. Good thing their judges can divine those dogs that have and those that haven't via the geiger counter provided by the RUFFwaffe (Radioactively Undermining Force Fetch)...

MG

 

[Sissi]

That's what the "winky eye" thing was for......I was being sarcastic.

"Focus" was a joke about keeping on the subject at hand, FF pressure, not hashing out the FF/collars are evil topic ......again.


As much as many people think, pressure is not the enemy of training, pressure that is not understood by the dog or is over zealously or misapplied is the enemy. The vast majority of dogs thrive on a training program that includes both mental and physical pressure.

Of course if you have no actual experience with this concept/result and are swayed by emotional arguments, then it's unlikely you'll ever understand.

No bad feelings Alex By the way I admire your avatar. I would love to have a paint horse..
By the way I don't think pressure is something a dog cannot handle.
I'm not a fan of training only with positive reenforcements (although my experience is that specially young dogs and horses love encouragement by the trainer especially in situations where they are not sure how to handle it)
I'm a big fan of pack behaviour, and there dogs accept pressure very well. In fact IMO packs couldn't exist without pressure.
BUT I have trained 3 dogs now without FF and all of them responed very well. So for me there is no necessity to change my trainingsprogramm right now.
And I don't have the chance to practise with an e-collar in Germany as it is forbidden. So how could I get personal experiences???
By the way I watched the videos of Lardy and I was impressed by his well organized trainings approach but still I believe with my dogs I will be able to reach my goals also without using a collar (And believe me my dog is stubborn, it is a Curly and not a F.T. lab)

 

[Sissi]

Think the Germans also have concerns about Einstein's Theory of E-Collarivity--that dogs trained with the collar genetically perpetuate electrons (and protons) for succeeding generations. Good thing their judges can divine those dogs that have and those that haven't via the geiger counter provided by the RUFFwaffe (Radioactively Undermining Force Fetch)...

MG

Oh you are telling something completly new This I must have missed somehow in my education

 

[Fowl Play WA]

correct ian!!!!!!!!

and I go even further (sorry german as well:razz: )

I NEVER would use a stud, if I would know he is trained FF or electric
I NEVER would buy a dog out of such parents
...............
and I go even further, what will remain of our labradors, when they can only be trained for succssesful competing with FF and electric;-)

I am born 1962 (so after the 2. world war, and after Bismark)

lg evelyn

I may be missing something here, but what does a ff'ed or e-collared parent have to do with the off-spring? If I've missed something in my quick reading of all this, kindly clear this up.

 

[Sissi]

Evelyn, what do you feel is the general agreement about what is so terrible about e-collars and force fetch? Do people feel they are "hurting" the dog? Do they feel they break the dog's spirit? What does it really come down to?

I'm asking because if you met my dogs and watched them work, WITH NO KNOWLEDGE of how I trained them... And they ran well, and happy. And they were excited to work. And, moreover, they were affectionate and personable... How would you feel about my dogs? And what difference would it make they they are trained with FF and ecollar?

Because FF and ecollar CERTAINLY don't give a dog a good, sweet temperament. They certainly don't teach a dog how to mark well and retrieve happily... So what's so bad about them if the dog is still a happy, driven, well-trained dog?

Thanks in advance for your response.

-Kristie

Kristie if you ever participate in competitions in Florida please send me an PM because until November I'll stay there. Actually I already planned to watch some Trials and I would love to watch your dogs running.

 

[Guest]

Kristie if you ever participate in competitions in Florida please send me an PM because until November I'll stay there. Actually I already planned to watch some Trials and I would love to watch your dogs running.

May be at Tallahassee in a few weeks...

 

[Sissi]

May be at Tallahassee in a few weeks...

Great! I was thinking about going there anyhow

 

[_Evelyn_]

Think the Germans also have concerns about Einstein's Theory of E-Collarivity--that dogs trained with the collar genetically perpetuate electrons (and protons) for succeeding generations. Good thing their judges can divine those dogs that have and those that haven't via the geiger counter provided by the RUFFwaffe (Radioactively Undermining Force Fetch)...

MG

I am sure, you have a lot of german relatives behind

evelyn

 

[_Evelyn_]

Evelyn, what do you feel is the general agreement about what is so terrible about e-collars

Hi kristie

I want to see a will to please and honest labrador,
who workes with me also at the distance.

the trainability is what remains on the way, my opinion.

because also hard to train dogs, will be successful with the collar.

we see dogs here from usa, that "normal " people can´t or don´t want to train anymore in a traditional way

lg evelyn

 

[cakaiser]

I want to see a will to please and honest labrador,
who workes with me also at the distance.

lg evelyn

And this is different from trainers in the US, how????

Believe me, if we don't have a compliant, trainable dog, they don't get very far.

 

[Fowl Play WA]

And this is different from trainers in the US, how????

Believe me, if we don't have a compliant, trainable dog, they don't get very far.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Doug Main]

because also hard to train dogs, will be successful with the collar.

Yea, that IS the myth!!!!!

Of course you have to ignore the fact that an easy to train dog trained with a collar will be EVEN MORE successful!!!

 

[Captain Mike D]

Kristie if you ever participate in competitions in Florida please send me an PM because until November I'll stay there. Actually I already planned to watch some Trials and I would love to watch your dogs running.

Sissi,

Hope you will attend the HRC hunt test in North East Florida (Callahan, Fl) on Oct 18, and 19th.

Then the following weekend Oct 24, 25th and 26th the Jacksonville Retriever Club will be hosting a field trial in Williston Fl. (near Ocala)

Given some of the distances the dogs will work at, you may want to bring some binoculars to the field trial as most likely, many of the handlers will be using them to see their dogs as they handle them to the bird on blind retrieves in the Open.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

And I don't have the chance to practise with an e-collar in Germany as it is forbidden. So how could I get personal experiences???

I think this says it all.

/Paul

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

I've seen horrible things done to a dog on a leash. I think we should ban leashes.

/Paul