[Kenneth Niles Bora]

If you are training alone and can't duplicate the problem.....you aren't trying hard enough.

Well yes and no,
I thought of a way to explain it to rookietrainer, Jim.
Remember when we were all in middle school and disco was king?
We all would spend hours practicing our moves in our room. Open neck black polyester shirts and white jackets and bell bottoms
Our moves would be set. Our lines would be practiced. We were AWSOME!
And then we would go to the dance, and in the time it took to walk from the teachers parking lot to the basket ball gym,
We would forget how to walk and speak English!

Yet, after a few dances, we were better.
This is all that this is, and it is what it is.

Your moves were solid at home. Now you moves need to be solid at the dance.

 

[John Robinson]

I just opened this thread and only read the first page, so forgive me if this has already been said, but the silver lining on this cloud is the fact that your dog is misbehaving in a controlled training atmosphere. It is much harder to address control issues when the dog only does it at a trial. So I always look at situations like this as great opportunities to correct at a time when I have tools. I have had dogs that were perfect angels during training, but would come completely unglued at a trial where my options are limited.

John

 

[Kirk Keene]

Everyone should have a dog like this as it makes you a better trainer.

Wayne, you got that right, but I sure am glad they're NOT all like this!

 

[KwickLabs]

Originally Posted by KwickLabs

If you are training alone and can't duplicate the problem.....you aren't trying hard enough.

Originally Posted by Ken Bora
Well yes and no, I thought of a way to explain it to rookietrainer, Jim. Remember when we were all in middle school and disco was king? We all would spend hours practicing our moves in our room. Open neck black polyester shirts and white jackets and bell bottoms Our moves would be set. Our lines would be practiced. We were AWSOME!
And then we would go to the dance, and in the time it took to walk from the teachers parking lot to the basket ball gym, We would forget how to walk and speak English!

Yet, after a few dances, we were better. This is all that this is, and it is what it is.

Your moves were solid at home. Now you moves need to be solid at the dance

Well, I do faintly remember Middle School and practicing how to dance alone, but it surely wasn't to Disco. It was music like Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker, Bristol Stomp - Dovells, Please Mr. Postman, Marvelettes - Hit The Road Jack - Ray CharlesBlue Moon - Marcels, Runaway - Del Shannon, Barbara-Ann - the Regents and Travelin' Man - Ricky Nelson......to name a few.

However, this is not about some 11 year old child trying to fit in. It's about a dog with poor coping skills. The dog is not standing in front of a mirror observing how he looks and practicing alone (well, that may well be a faulty assumption in itself). However, in theory, there is a tutor showing the dog what to do. Which points out the two basic problems - the dog really has no idea how he looks and the tutor is often showing (or allowing him) to make all the wrong moves. To make this a bit less cryptic, there are two kinds of "moves" = physical and mental. The mental aspect has a powerful impact on the physical presentation.

Now to meld this into the overall point I'm trying to make. The dog can't dance until he is mentally at ease. To make this even less cryptic the troubled dog must be modified. Many feel that the best (and only way) to accomplish anything is exposure to the actual environment around him and modify with force. With many dogs and a skilled trainer this is effective.

The fact remains (because this doesn’t always work), many dogs have a great deal of impedance. It is often said, "A person will become a good dog trainer when they become skilled at getting into a dog's mind." Now I ask you, if the trainer is the cause of the dog having issues, how in the world is asking the dog to step out from in front of the mirror and face the real music (and change) going to be effective when the skills to molding his mind are flawed mirages?

Changing a dog's mind often requires a deprogramming stage. This is more difficult when deprogramming is attempted in the same context as where the poor coping skills flourish.

As for dismissing "Lardy's quote" because it doesn't refer to training (only tests and field trials), I qualified that by stating one could interpolate the concept of "taking quite some time" to cure the dog and extend it back into training sessions which could be pushed even further back into the yard (training alone) where there is no doubt in my mind the problem began in the first place. The problem with the yard is there is no one to modify the trainer. In my opinion there are often just too many contrary dynamics in group training sessions to do an adequate job of curing a seriously impaired dog. In addition the dog goes home. A dog that is slightly off kilter....maybe. With "huge issue dogs" and weak trainers.......probably not.

It is said that responsiveness is a two way street. Too often, that is not taken seriously.

All too often there needs to be two mirrors.....because there are two "dancers".

Here is a parting story to think about. Many years ago in Minnesota, a handler ran his dog in a Seasoned HRC test. The dog was simply marvelous in terms of skill and the way she was so in tune with what was going on. Not only was she skilled but her style and speed were outstanding.

After the test, everyone wanted to know "the story". This was the first test the dog had every run. The handler and his wife had NEVER trained with anyone else. This was their first dog, first test and first time with anyone watching. He was a Pastor and a very cool guy. His wife was thrilled with testing. The dog didn't know anything other than being calm, responsive and explosive. She knew what was expected of her.......and nothing else.

Training is not done with smoke and/or mirrors (real or imaginary).

 

[RookieTrainer]

Thanks again for all the responses. I think I have enough information to come up with a plan.

It seems to me that the two things he loves most are food and birds, and not necessarily in that order. What I then need to do, it seems, is come up with a program for making him wait until he is in a calm state before he gets rewarded with either of those things.

Last night at feeding time I sat it down in its usual spot with him sitting in the next room - with a clear view of the bowl. I made him sit there until he laid down and relaxed before I released him to eat. It took right at 40 minutes for this to occur.

After an hour or so I took him in the yard and had my wife throw a duck for him. Out of five throws I allowed him to pick up two, and only then after perfect behavior. I would have let him get one more but he moved his foot like he was about to take off so I immediately gave him the "no bird" and had my wife pick it up.

I can't see where anything other than this sort of thing over a few weeks or months, and gradually working into doing it in the training environment, will fix this issue. It is a good problem to have, sort of like worring about paying too much income tax, but it is a problem nonetheless. Nobody wants to hunt with a dog that can't be still and just runs around making a pest of himself.

Thanks again for all the help. I am committed to my dog and to myself that we are going to get this issue successfully addressed.

 

[Justin Allen]

Thats how dentists are, they never work. Especially the one in question. Come to the next training day, we can compare our wild dogs. You may leave feeling a little better about yourself. Bring the dentist with you if you can.

I posted #33 before I saw roseberry's post. I don't mind the judging. I am doing the best I can, and that's what matters to me. When my best is not good enough, as it very obviously is not in the training day scenario, then I have to get help.

Where do you guys train? I'll take all the help I can get.

Fishduck is a good source of info, but you know you can't depend on a person who goes on vacation 3 weeks out of every month.

 

[RookieTrainer]

Well, it only took 33 minutes for him to get to eat tonight, so that's improvement.

I think Wayne was right. This dog is going to teach me a LOT about training.

 

[RookieTrainer]

Down to 10 minutes for him to lay down and be released to eat. Much more responsive to commands, and much more likely to just sit/lay down of his own accord. This being firmer and insisting on compliance the first time or take the consequences stuff seems to work. I'll have a much better idea of what to do with my next pup for sure. You know, I am a first child, so that may explain some things there as well.

Still fired up about birds. Have been throwing birds in the yard and insisting on perfect behavior from him before he is allowed the bird. We have graduated to being able to lay down, hear a duck call, and watch me jump up and yell "boom boom" with no movement until release. Have been letting him know that we were using birds, and then insisting on calm behavior on the way to his mat, which (after a few swats in the chest) have improved. We are going to keep working on it in the yard until it becomes ingrained. A mindset, if you will.

Thanks again to everybody who offered advice and suggestions. I think I got something helpful from everybody who posted.

 

[IdahoLabs]

Really good advice all through this thread and sounds like you have a plan now and I'm a little late to the party. However, couple thoughts to chew on... 1) I *never* let my dogs change position when they've been left on a stay. I realize that going from sit to down *usually* indicates the animal relaxing, but "stay" means STAY. Laying down, getting up, creeping, etc - they are ALL entirely unacceptable. I compete in obedience and there are three positions - sit, down, and stand - and moving from one to the other without a command is an NQ. I never allow feet to move - if I leave the dog on a stand-stay I expect all four feet to stay in the same place until he's released.

2) Make sure you're consistent... I've noticed it's easy for people to hold one standard in training and another standard "around the house." Don't ever use a command you're not prepared to enforce. If you walk out of the house and tell him to "stay" as you're leaving for work, you just gave a command you also give in training.

3) Dog creeps - put him back where he started and re-do the drill.

4) Make him obey on the first command, every time. In the backyard and with the training group - first command, and hold that standard. A second command should be accompanied by a correction if the dog knows the command (with a few exceptions, ie confusion, insecurity, etc).

5) Lot of comments on here that you need to revisit obedience -- do it. In your shoes I'd also make a point out of training obedience somewhere other than your house at least 3 days a week. I use the local parks in town, rotate about 4 of them and pick a different place in the park every time... and I do that with my main competition dog, who is working at the highest level of AKC obedience. He's been in the ring over 30 times across 6 states and I *still* take him to new places on a regular basis. It'll really help solidify the "standards are the same regardless of the environment" concept in your dog's mind.

And finally, there's someone on here with a signature line that says "You cannot expect your dog to be more precise than you are."

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Really good advice all through this thread and sounds like you have a plan now and I'm a little late to the party. However, couple thoughts to chew on... 1) I *never* let my dogs change position when they've been left on a stay. I realize that going from sit to down *usually* indicates the animal relaxing, but "stay" means STAY. Laying down, getting up, creeping, etc - they are ALL entirely unacceptable. I compete in obedience and there are three positions - sit, down, and stand - and moving from one to the other without a command is an NQ. I never allow feet to move - if I leave the dog on a stand-stay I expect all four feet to stay in the same place until he's released.

2) Make sure you're consistent... I've noticed it's easy for people to hold one standard in training and another standard "around the house." Don't ever use a command you're not prepared to enforce. If you walk out of the house and tell him to "stay" as you're leaving for work, you just gave a command you also give in training.

3) Dog creeps - put him back where he started and re-do the drill.

4) Make him obey on the first command, every time. In the backyard and with the training group - first command, and hold that standard. A second command should be accompanied by a correction if the dog knows the command (with a few exceptions, ie confusion, insecurity, etc).

5) Lot of comments on here that you need to revisit obedience -- do it. In your shoes I'd also make a point out of training obedience somewhere other than your house at least 3 days a week. I use the local parks in town, rotate about 4 of them and pick a different place in the park every time... and I do that with my main competition dog, who is working at the highest level of AKC obedience. He's been in the ring over 30 times across 6 states and I *still* take him to new places on a regular basis. It'll really help solidify the "standards are the same regardless of the environment" concept in your dog's mind.

And finally, there's someone on here with a signature line that says "You cannot expect your dog to be more precise than you are."

Really good advice even if you train alone. You enforce it when alone and it becomes routine and he may be better in company. It is not easy if you have a difficult companion and yes he sure tries your patience but it does boil down to you being firm and consistent even in the house.