[DL]

MISCELLANEOUS



To send a dog on a blind use ”back". To send a dog on a mark use dog's name. Refrain from using preparatory commands on either (example: saying ”mark", ”mark”, ”dead bird”, or "take a line”, ”water”, etc.).
Commands should be given as commands. Do not ask, plead, or entice a dog into doing anything.
Tell him! Be authoritativel Have no pleading tone in the voice. Develop one manner of talking to or giving commands to a dog. Ideally this should carry over from training to whatever non-training situation that the dogs share with you. This is hard to do for that pet and field dog which lives inside or spends a lot of time with owner (handler).This love for the dog permits him to know things about you (at home) that could carry over to the field and hinder his progress in training. A dog will capitalize on any of your weaknesses at home or on the field trial or training
grounds. Consistency and persistency is important to keep the dog at the best possible.
Much is communicated to a dog through the tone of your voice alone. The dog knows when you mean business and this should be almost always. Enticing a dog takes the force out of a command. But a command should not sound like a threat even though it is a threat if the dog disobeys it.
The dog should be trained so that the gallery will not be able to tell that the dog has been forced.

Rex Carr

I do a thing where I am conscious of not giving a command unless I can enforce it. If someone is giving the command tone all the time, but can't enforce it I imagine that isn't a good thing either.

I imagine it makes a difference how much the dog knows the command in regards to how timely the enforcing needs to be. A dog just learning the command would need better timing with the enforcing.

 

[22899]

DL

This first 5 sentences of the Carr quote above answered your question directly.. You asked for a direct answer..
There is no TIMING for a "que" that some feel is unnecessary,and you should'nt be using.



Gooser

 

[DL]

DL

This first 5 sentences of the Carr quote above answered your question directly.. You asked for a direct answer..
There is no TIMING for a "que" that some feel is unnecessary,and you should'nt be using.



Gooser

You and the people you train with don't use any "cues"?

 

[22899]

You and the people you train with don't use any "cues"? I would have to be some kind of nutty professor academic type not to use "cues" just because of a Rex Carr quote.

You asked the question sir!!!!

I gave you an answer from a professional dog trainer, that has forgot more about dogs, than you or I will ever know..

I have been taught to keep things a simple as possible....

"back" on Blinds...
Call name on Marks..

Sit

Here

heel.

When you run your blinds, just kick the dog off by saying "back" Talk to him with your whistle and Hands..

Do this a LOT (run blinds) repetition and consistency .

pretty simple.

And if it were me,, I would listen to Rex Carr,, before I would go on the internet, and ask advice from people you dont know!! Just think about it a minute,and Consider the fact,, a guy named Gooser just gave you advice...

There are a LOT of very good resources out there that can help you.. Asking a Pro if you could come and day train with them in person,, is a wonderful way to learn..

 

[ErinsEdge]

There are definitly different camps on one sided heeling vs 2 sided heeling, and cues depending on what pro you use. Neither is wrong but consistency is important to the dog. Pros on both sides have won multiple Opens and Nationals. I like cues and 2-sided heeling, and was taught originally at Lardy's.

 

[DL]

You asked the question sir!!!!

I gave you an answer from a professional dog trainer, that has forgot more about dogs, than you or I will ever know..

I have been taught to keep things a simple as possible....

"back" on Blinds...
Call name on Marks..

Sit

Here

heel.

When you run your blinds, just kick the dog off by saying "back" Talk to him with your whistle and Hands..

Do this a LOT (run blinds) repetition and consistency .

pretty simple.

And if it were me,, I would listen to Rex Carr,, before I would go on the internet, and ask advice from people you dont know!! Just think about it a minute,and Consider the fact,, a guy named Gooser just gave you advice...

There are a LOT of very good resources out there that can help you.. Asking a Pro if you could come and day train with them in person,, is a wonderful way to learn..

You changed what I wrote, jk. I need to stay off social media, period. I do learn some things though.

 

[DarrinGreene]

The dogs do respond to it though. I don't claim to know whether it is good of not. I like other perspectives as a general rule.

The dog responds with excitement because he understands the chain of events that just commenced - ending in his being released. Whether that creates obedience or degrades it is an entirely different matter, individual to the dog and handler team. If I start talking to my girl on the way to the line (regardless of situation) her excitement makes her much harder to control. Another dog might need that excitement to run a stylish blind.

I said you don't need it because the dog can easily tell the difference between a mark and a blind by the way you line him up and the absence of marks in the field. Also - even on a mark - he has to respond to the sit whistle and any casts given, so... no need for him to know whether it's a mark or a blind. He should go when I command it, stop when I command it and take direction from me when I command it regardless...

 

[DarrinGreene]

Mike Lardy uses the cue in the videos. It is apparent you don't see other possible scenarios where someone who has started running cold blinds recently would have run something someone would call a "master level" blind.

Use of cues aside - Lardy builds blinds gradually, with a focus on momentum and attitude. There is no "master level" anything at the beginning of that process. May be just a misuse or misunderstanding of words.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Come to think of it, if a dog responds to it, that is proof it is not babble.

See my text above for what is really happening when you start talking to your dog on the way to the line. Adjust according to the dog you own/train/handle.

Seriously, there is no one size fits all method for any of this stuff. With one dog you do one thing and with the next that same thing blows up.

It takes training/handling a bunch of dogs to really see it. Everyone should take the opportunity to get with a pro if they can, and watch/work the entire truck/trailer. Every dog coming off has it's quirks and needs.

Saying dead bird, regardless of who does it or when, is based on a level of intellect I don't believe most dogs posses. I say that especially because there is no direct training of the word in the program anywhere. When you say "good" in that sequence, you release the dog to retrieve - hence it is reinforced. DEAD BIRD or DEAD is always followed by another command, be it sit, here, heel or good. It is never rewarded or reinforced directly. It simply marks the beginning of a sequence. I think you could say more or less anything in the same tone and get the same response with a lot of dogs.

People have disagreed vehemently with me on the intellect issue before and that's fine. I deal with a ton of dogs every week/month/year. I don't assume they can "understand" anything that wasn't deliberately taught with reinforcement of some sort, be it positive or negative. I keep training straightforward for myself, the client and the dog. We get better results that way, no doubt.

There are a ton of these words in the retriever trainer/handler's vernacular. Words that are supposed to have meaning to the dog but only ever come out in the field and are pretty much always followed by another command.

MARK is another one... it's redundant to GOOD if you think about it. MARK means - lock onto that gun station... GOOD means - lock onto that gun station. Some people use MARK to mean look out into the field. I haven't seen too many retrievers that weren't scanning the field as they came to the line, except a few that possibly shouldn't have been there in the first place. I don't know how you teach a dog that MARK means "we are running a mark" or what difference that makes. As I mentioned previously - the standards are the same. GO, STOP, COME, CHANGE DIRECTION all apply regardless of the scenario.

You can use a few or as many words as you like. I personally don't like redundant babble in any of my training, pets included. Teach a few words and teach them thoroughly.

I'm not arguing for or against - I just hope people will break this stuff down and make intelligent decisions for their dogs. Lardy and other top pros know exactly what they are doing with each and every dog that touch. They publish information that is applicable to the majority but there is no way it can cover every single dog's drive, nerves and ability. It's just not possible. You have to understand the ABC's of training to use a program effectively, unless you get lucky all throughout your life and purchase dogs that your "program" will work for.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

When I say "cookie" my dogs know to run to the cupboard. When I say "who wants" the ears perk up and they get ready to run to the cupboard. Just saying.

 

[DarrinGreene]

When I say "cookie" my dogs know to run to the cupboard. When I say "who wants" the ears perk up and they get ready to run to the cupboard. Just saying.

What's that got to do with DEAD BIRD, SIT, HERE, HERE, HERE, HEEL, SIT, GOOD, THAT'S IT, GOOD....

Or MARK, SIT, WAY OUT, MARK, MARK, HERE, HEEL, SIT, GOOD...

Apples and Oranges Wayne. My dogs know what time of day it is, as evidenced by their not wanting to go air when they know it's time to come in for dinner. I didn't teach it deliberately. They see the same pattern every day of their lives.

My experience - tell a handler to say three words and you get nine most of the time. Tell them to say one and you'll likely get two or three...

Sorry if I'm preaching a bit on the issue of "too much talk". It's a common theme. I did it when I first started working with a pro behind me every day.

BTW - the heeling stick hurts (I don't talk anymore on line).

 

[polmaise]

When I say "cookie" my dogs know to run to the cupboard. When I say "who wants" the ears perk up and they get ready to run to the cupboard. Just saying.

While You are in the field ?..Or at a test 100 + miles away ? ..That is impressive ....Just saying ?

 

[ErinsEdge]

People have disagreed vehemently with me on the intellect issue before and that's fine.

And continue to do so. Not even worth rehashing.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

I guess I was trying to say this is just silly. Read Erins two posts.

 

[polmaise]

I guess I was trying to say this is just really silly. Read every ones post other than Wayne's or Erins posts ! ...Just saying >>>>

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

I notice my dog looking around when I give the cue which isn't a problem as far as I know. Does it help to give the cue when you are walking to the line so the dog gets earlier notice what to expect? Right now I have been doing it after I sit him. I have just been saying "dead'. Does 'dead bird' resemble "no bird' too much, apparently not? Is there a time to use one or another if someone uses both? I have started using 'no bird' on the honoring. I know that has some other uses. Is that typical?

I've told my dog "Dead bird" before unloading from the car, again as we air, then as we're going to the holding blind, then in the holding blind, then at the line, maybe 2x more if there's a poison bird. There have been times when she's understood.

 

[Migillicutty]

I told my no pros a lot of stuff I wouldn't do myself because I knew they needed to simplify. Just kicking a dog off on back is a great way to burn an early whistle.

My dog knows way out regards.