If someone decides to train a dog solely for hunting and doesn't FF the dog, what are the things they will have to worry about and what are some tips for making sure that they can still have a well trained dog?
torrey
Of all the things that I might not do force fetch would not be one of them.
Force fetch makes retrieving obligatory rather than voluntary.
Force fetch makes retrieving obligatory rather than voluntary.
Force fetch makes the dog retrieve because you want it to, not because the dog wants to. Most retrievers will pick up a duck in the decoys without much difficulty on a warm calm day. Take that same un FFd dog and put a patch of briars between it and the duck, or skim ice on the pond or deep belly sucking marsh mud, or make the duck a cripple instead of graveyard dead, and there are plenty of dogs who will tell you to get it yourself.
Depends on the dog. I didnt FF my last HUNTING dog. But he was a retrieving animal!!!!! Didn't care about anything but getting that bumper or bird. Could have killed him in July/August by running him in the ground and he would have kept going. But my new dog is not this driven and I plan to run him in trails so he will be FF.
My pup is going through FF right now but my dad isn't FFing his dog (litter mate to mine). His last dog he didn't FF and was excellent but ended up having a very short hunting career due to a back problem and was retired to the couch (but she was a great couch dog).
Now that my dad is retired he will be doing a lot more bird hunting but he's pretty much going to be pheasant hunting only...maybe some geese but no waterfowl. He's going through the OB work now and my dad's pup has hold down pat.
Guess I'm just getting ideas for him.
Now that my dad is retired he will be doing a lot more bird hunting but he's pretty much going to be pheasant hunting only...maybe some geese but no waterfowl. He's going through the OB work now and my dad's pup has hold down pat.
Guess I'm just getting ideas for him.
Not FFing will probably not make any difference at all to your dads dog. The thing is, if the dog ever refuses to rertieve something you have no tool to enfocre the fetch command with. Besides fetching, FF adds a lot to a retrievers training. That said, there are probably more birds retrieved each year by dogs that are not FF'd then are FF'd.
Ultimately, it is your dads dog and he should train him the way he wants.
Tom
Ultimately, it is your dads dog and he should train him the way he wants.
Tom
Force fetching does a LOT more than just ensure reliable retrieving and good mouth habits. It is the basis for all the training that follows. It sets the tone for the trainer/pupil relationship.
Force Fetch to a dog is like boot camp to a soldier; he could probably be a soldier without it but ..... ;-)
JS
Force Fetch to a dog is like boot camp to a soldier; he could probably be a soldier without it but ..... ;-)
JS
I agree the FF lays a lot of the ground work and set the tone for the handler-dog relationship as well as a strong foundation in basic obedience. Bedies what has already been said about FF giving you a command the dog knows and obeys when it comes to retrieving anything, I think it also sets up a more reliable delivery to hand and also is teh foundation for teaching casting.
I had a good buddy in South Dakota that had the backyard bred yellow lab pheasant "dawg." He really did little training other than on the job training and after 3-4 years of pushing birds around every weekend of the season she had become a pretty nice flushing retriever. I said to him one day as he and I were blocking at the end of the field as the drivers were making their way to us that Ginger was sure turning out nice for him and what he wanted, but that if she were FF'ed she would really be reliable. He kind of dismissed and said "Aw shucks, I don't need to have that, she is not a test/trial dog or anything like that." No sooner did he say that, but a bird got up down the field and was knocked down in the discing between the two strips of corn the guys were working towards us. Ginger lept into action and made a sweet retrieve on that "not able to fly, but plenty of leg" rooster. Enroute back to us the guys flush another bird right at the end of the field. Ginger seeing this forgets anything she ever knew ( or didn't know) about delivery to hand and drops the cripple and dashes into the corn for the stone cold dead bird mere feet from my buddy and myself. The cripple escaped us that day and was never found...coyote food. I said to my buddy, a solid understanding of FF and delivery to hand and that probably wouldn't have happened.
And when I start teaching my dogs casting, I use the "fetch" command to get them moving before I introduce "over" or "back." If the dog doesn't know what "fetch" means, what do you do. Keep tossing that bumper out there and hope they figure out what "over" means?
Seems like FF is one of those things I would never leave out of the retriever basic vocabulary.
I had a good buddy in South Dakota that had the backyard bred yellow lab pheasant "dawg." He really did little training other than on the job training and after 3-4 years of pushing birds around every weekend of the season she had become a pretty nice flushing retriever. I said to him one day as he and I were blocking at the end of the field as the drivers were making their way to us that Ginger was sure turning out nice for him and what he wanted, but that if she were FF'ed she would really be reliable. He kind of dismissed and said "Aw shucks, I don't need to have that, she is not a test/trial dog or anything like that." No sooner did he say that, but a bird got up down the field and was knocked down in the discing between the two strips of corn the guys were working towards us. Ginger lept into action and made a sweet retrieve on that "not able to fly, but plenty of leg" rooster. Enroute back to us the guys flush another bird right at the end of the field. Ginger seeing this forgets anything she ever knew ( or didn't know) about delivery to hand and drops the cripple and dashes into the corn for the stone cold dead bird mere feet from my buddy and myself. The cripple escaped us that day and was never found...coyote food. I said to my buddy, a solid understanding of FF and delivery to hand and that probably wouldn't have happened.
And when I start teaching my dogs casting, I use the "fetch" command to get them moving before I introduce "over" or "back." If the dog doesn't know what "fetch" means, what do you do. Keep tossing that bumper out there and hope they figure out what "over" means?
Seems like FF is one of those things I would never leave out of the retriever basic vocabulary.
What most of these guys said is true. FF'ing doesn't necessarily make him retrieve, but to do it in any condition, without reservation. But more importantly, it teaches your dog how to handle pressure as well as lay the foundation for future training should you decide to take him/her further... i.e. collar conditioning, handling training, etc.....It will also show you what temperament you are dealing with at a deeper level and how your dog handles pressure. In short, it's just too valuable a step to skip. Hope this helps.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
British and Irish Field Trials are run as close to a real shooting day as can be and the standard is very high; you don't win one with a sloppy retriever; non of those dogs is FF'd. I've trained six dogs (ESS and Labs) from such stock thus far without it and can truthfully say, hand on heart, I've never had a trained dog refuse a retrieve.
Decide beforehand just exactly what your aims and desires will be. Have a clear view of the sort of dog you want, and plan your training to that end. Don't "butterfly train", have a steady progression of building blocks in mind, and don't be in a rush. Train regularly with a group, and train every day if at all possible; better for you and the dog if it's in short lessons. Learn the theory and keep your cool.
If a dog is bred right, from known and dependable working stock, FF is entirely redundant.
Eug
Many replies to the original question seem to me to conflate FF with a structured training regime (which it may well be) but fail to recognise that structured training can and does exist without it, and to advanced levels.
kbcoltcompany posted
HoHumsretrievers posted
Bob posted
Get the right stuff, know the theory, train intelligently with clear aims and objectives, and there is no reason to FF.
Eug
kbcoltcompany posted
All mine handle at distance; non is FF'd or CC'd. FF may well fit into your training program but it isn't a neccessary or vital part of training a sound retriever.
HoHumsretrievers posted
As above. I think you may be equating the lack of FF with "no training at all." So the answer is .. train the dog.
Bob posted
Perhaps there are; but like I said I've never had a refusal and never FF'd. You may be assured there is the odd bramble thicket round here, and patches of damp ground are said to exist on the Solway.
Get the right stuff, know the theory, train intelligently with clear aims and objectives, and there is no reason to FF.
Eug
My first trained retriever was a black Lab female - a grand daughter of High Point Derby dog Mac Gene's Fall Guy (I still love that name!). She was never force fetched, nor e-collar conditioned. She had a Qualifying win and several other placements. There were no hunt tests at the time, but a win in the Q was exciting for a first time trainer!
Experience can be a wonderful teacher. That girl was a tremendous marker, and a strong lining dog. Given better training - including force fetch and e-collar conditioning - she should have been a field champion. There is no doubt, nor going back.
Live and learn regards,
Evan
Experience can be a wonderful teacher. That girl was a tremendous marker, and a strong lining dog. Given better training - including force fetch and e-collar conditioning - she should have been a field champion. There is no doubt, nor going back.
Live and learn regards,
Evan
Since hunting is what your training for and you are not on a time table,,it is certainly possible to train your dog without FF.
The European dogs have taken a slightly different breeding path than the US dogs. There temperament base is often quite different so I would agree with Cornel Blimp,,,because over seas they do it all the time.
But if you have a randomly bred US dog you weather field or pet you'll probably be better served FF.
Force is one of the best operant conditioning method to use on most dogs for a variety of problems and or training for desired results. So I certainly would look into learning how.
But its possible you may not need to in order to have a nice hunting dog.
After a while you will realize weather you need it or not. If this is the first dog you have trained then get with a knowledable person for FF , But there is an outside chance you may not need it.
There are alot of ways of going about getting your desired results
Pete
The European dogs have taken a slightly different breeding path than the US dogs. There temperament base is often quite different so I would agree with Cornel Blimp,,,because over seas they do it all the time.
But if you have a randomly bred US dog you weather field or pet you'll probably be better served FF.
Force is one of the best operant conditioning method to use on most dogs for a variety of problems and or training for desired results. So I certainly would look into learning how.
But its possible you may not need to in order to have a nice hunting dog.
After a while you will realize weather you need it or not. If this is the first dog you have trained then get with a knowledable person for FF , But there is an outside chance you may not need it.
There are alot of ways of going about getting your desired results
Pete
I couldn't resist this thread so here are
some thoughts on force fetch training for retriever gundogs:
Note the operative word gundogs (not field trial dogs)
1. I have found that the lighter the pressure (pinch), the faster the overall process proceeds. You want to use just enough pressure to make the dog uneasy so that he wants to escape. Then you provide the escape path which is the dummy in mouth.
2. When the dummy is in the dogs mouth: lots of reward with petting and praise. You are defining the behavior you want. It is very simple.
-Dummy not in mouth - feel bad
-Dummy in mouth- feel good
3. As I look over all the past dogs I have force fetched I am fairly sure that the biggest problems and the longest overall training times usually were the result of too much pressure (pinch). There is a human tendency to try to make a dog’s response faster by increasing the pressure. With many dogs this is counter productive. A slow response to pressure is generally attributable to fear and higher pressure simply produces higher fear level with limited learning. The way to increase response speed is with reward. This is somewhat counterintuitive for humans. The petting and praise when dummy is in mouth generally provides the speed up of response.
4. I have found that if I use extremely light pressure, just enough that the dog is uncomfortable, and do not worry about speed of response (apply the light pinch and let him find the escape route at his own speed) then I can force fetch a dog generally in 10 to 15 sessions of 3 to 5 minutes. Many dogs can get it in 5 or 6 sessions, especially when an element of play is incorporated.
5. Level of pressure is determined entirely by the dog, the human’s opinion is not relevant.
6. I am training gundogs and thus am only concerned with delivery to hand. I am not concerned with advanced Field Trial lining behaviors, thus I am not concerned with forcing to go
7. My current practice is to get as much of fetch done with play as possible. Some dogs get it simply from kicking the dummy with your foot and saying “fetch it up” playfully. Many more will get it from using a tennis ball. Roll the ball. When dog fetches and brings the ball to you, immediately reward dog with a short toss. We have all seen house dogs that learn on their own that bringing the ball to a human produces a toss. All you need to do is associate a signal (command) with that behavior.
I have found that I can get probably 80% of dogs to fetch from ground and deliver to hand with play training. The other 20% go through the “force fetch – Light” program.
8. All the above being said, I use canvas dummies exclusively in training because they are comfortable for a dog to carry and lead to minimum mouth and delivery problems. This tends to minimize the time I have to spend on force fetch issues and maximize the time I can spend on the more important behaviors of whistle stopping, directional casts and blind retrieves.
Best Regards,
Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com
some thoughts on force fetch training for retriever gundogs:
Note the operative word gundogs (not field trial dogs)
1. I have found that the lighter the pressure (pinch), the faster the overall process proceeds. You want to use just enough pressure to make the dog uneasy so that he wants to escape. Then you provide the escape path which is the dummy in mouth.
2. When the dummy is in the dogs mouth: lots of reward with petting and praise. You are defining the behavior you want. It is very simple.
-Dummy not in mouth - feel bad
-Dummy in mouth- feel good
3. As I look over all the past dogs I have force fetched I am fairly sure that the biggest problems and the longest overall training times usually were the result of too much pressure (pinch). There is a human tendency to try to make a dog’s response faster by increasing the pressure. With many dogs this is counter productive. A slow response to pressure is generally attributable to fear and higher pressure simply produces higher fear level with limited learning. The way to increase response speed is with reward. This is somewhat counterintuitive for humans. The petting and praise when dummy is in mouth generally provides the speed up of response.
4. I have found that if I use extremely light pressure, just enough that the dog is uncomfortable, and do not worry about speed of response (apply the light pinch and let him find the escape route at his own speed) then I can force fetch a dog generally in 10 to 15 sessions of 3 to 5 minutes. Many dogs can get it in 5 or 6 sessions, especially when an element of play is incorporated.
5. Level of pressure is determined entirely by the dog, the human’s opinion is not relevant.
6. I am training gundogs and thus am only concerned with delivery to hand. I am not concerned with advanced Field Trial lining behaviors, thus I am not concerned with forcing to go
7. My current practice is to get as much of fetch done with play as possible. Some dogs get it simply from kicking the dummy with your foot and saying “fetch it up” playfully. Many more will get it from using a tennis ball. Roll the ball. When dog fetches and brings the ball to you, immediately reward dog with a short toss. We have all seen house dogs that learn on their own that bringing the ball to a human produces a toss. All you need to do is associate a signal (command) with that behavior.
I have found that I can get probably 80% of dogs to fetch from ground and deliver to hand with play training. The other 20% go through the “force fetch – Light” program.
8. All the above being said, I use canvas dummies exclusively in training because they are comfortable for a dog to carry and lead to minimum mouth and delivery problems. This tends to minimize the time I have to spend on force fetch issues and maximize the time I can spend on the more important behaviors of whistle stopping, directional casts and blind retrieves.
Best Regards,
Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com
Robert,
Thank you !!! Great post !!
There can be quite a difference in the training of a gun dog and a trial dog.
Torrey,
I'm sure if your father would spend a day or 2 with Matt they could get going down the road to a FF' dog with no big hassle's.
John
Thank you !!! Great post !!
There can be quite a difference in the training of a gun dog and a trial dog.
Torrey,
I'm sure if your father would spend a day or 2 with Matt they could get going down the road to a FF' dog with no big hassle's.
John
The majority of people I hunt with don't FF their dogs. This is only pheasant or sharptail hunting.
Some are excellent and some I try to avoid. It puts more on the dog's genetic disposition than a FF dog. Hopefully, the dog has a natural good mouth and good retrieving instinct.
Most pure hunting dogs probably don't need it. There are always situations such as the dog dropping the cripple described above. Working on hold / OB also could've avoided it.
I've seen too many dogs that were a joy to hunt over that aren't FF to say it is the end all be all.
Some are excellent and some I try to avoid. It puts more on the dog's genetic disposition than a FF dog. Hopefully, the dog has a natural good mouth and good retrieving instinct.
Most pure hunting dogs probably don't need it. There are always situations such as the dog dropping the cripple described above. Working on hold / OB also could've avoided it.
I've seen too many dogs that were a joy to hunt over that aren't FF to say it is the end all be all.
I have FF my dogs and will continue to do so. BUT, I think it depends on your dog. I can teach a dog to deliver to hand without FF, I can teach a dog the command fetch without FF. IF your dog has the drive and desire, it can be taught hold, fetch, and deliver to hand without the FF program. IMO, and I've done it. I teach my dogs deliver to hand before FF.
I have a 4yr old yellow lab that was bought from a pet store. This dog has NEVER been FF. We had to reverse the order and pinch his ear to get him to drop until he reliably learned the drop command. He knows leave it and will move his head away from the bumper if you tell him to leave it then put it near him, but as soon as you tell him to fetch, he fetches. He learned very rough casting from watching my first dog and training with him. He will turn and sit and take a rough cast.
IF we had put the time and effort into this dog, he would have been a tremendous hunting dog and probably could have competed. We did not because, being bought from a pet store, he had kennel cough that turned into bronchitis and left him with scar tissue in his lungs (from a vet saying put him on Robitussin and who was more worried about neutering him than anything else...needless to say, don't go to him anymore). He sounds like he has asthma. But he loves to work. Since we never trained him formally, we never put him on birds so he has no interest. He loves his bumpers and tennis balls, which is fine because he's just a pet now.
Either way, I agree with everyone else that FF is more than just delivery to hand, BUT I also think that, in certain situations, with certain dogs, dependant upon certain goals, that it can be done without. It's completely up to your dad how he wants to train his dog. If at a later date, he wants FF, he can go back. It will hold him up and he might wish he had done it earlier, but it's not like you can't do it later. There will be more complications and more to be retuaght, but again, it's all up to him.
Good luck.
Kourtney
I have a 4yr old yellow lab that was bought from a pet store. This dog has NEVER been FF. We had to reverse the order and pinch his ear to get him to drop until he reliably learned the drop command. He knows leave it and will move his head away from the bumper if you tell him to leave it then put it near him, but as soon as you tell him to fetch, he fetches. He learned very rough casting from watching my first dog and training with him. He will turn and sit and take a rough cast.
IF we had put the time and effort into this dog, he would have been a tremendous hunting dog and probably could have competed. We did not because, being bought from a pet store, he had kennel cough that turned into bronchitis and left him with scar tissue in his lungs (from a vet saying put him on Robitussin and who was more worried about neutering him than anything else...needless to say, don't go to him anymore). He sounds like he has asthma. But he loves to work. Since we never trained him formally, we never put him on birds so he has no interest. He loves his bumpers and tennis balls, which is fine because he's just a pet now.
Either way, I agree with everyone else that FF is more than just delivery to hand, BUT I also think that, in certain situations, with certain dogs, dependant upon certain goals, that it can be done without. It's completely up to your dad how he wants to train his dog. If at a later date, he wants FF, he can go back. It will hold him up and he might wish he had done it earlier, but it's not like you can't do it later. There will be more complications and more to be retuaght, but again, it's all up to him.
Good luck.
Kourtney
I trained my first hunting dog without FF. Straight out of Water Dog. Didn't use an e-collar either. The dog was a decent hunting dog and had lots of drive. If that is what you want. The problems I ran into were dropping ducks at the waters edge and a tendency to switch. A better Amish trainer could have fixed these problems.
Now that I have trained a dog with FF and an e-collar my perspective has changed. It can be done but is infinitely more difficult. Some people like to kill deer with spears and pheasant hunt with bows: to each his own. Your dog will progress quicker with FF than without it.
Mark L.
Now that I have trained a dog with FF and an e-collar my perspective has changed. It can be done but is infinitely more difficult. Some people like to kill deer with spears and pheasant hunt with bows: to each his own. Your dog will progress quicker with FF than without it.
Mark L.
The foundation work on retrievers should be the same, there shouldn't be any shortcuts. When I worked for a pro and did the basics on his gun dogs, I did not change the program except of course adapt the pace and the pressure to the individual. (I never trained any FT dogs except my own.)
This takes them through high school.
At college level, the dogs now have majors, so would be trained according to their specialty - FT, HT, gun dogs, SAR, bomb detection, cadaver, etc.
This takes them through high school.
At college level, the dogs now have majors, so would be trained according to their specialty - FT, HT, gun dogs, SAR, bomb detection, cadaver, etc.
Okay here is the "gentle FF" method I used for my dog- I taught all the commands first- "Hold" first by placing something in his mouth, then once he would do that almost automatically I extended his reaction with a "fetch" command slowly moving the bumper further away- at the same time he only could release the object with an "drop" command- so this was part of basic obedience. Instead of using an ear pitch or toe pitch, I simply used a correction from the choke chain- a quick snap "hold" or a quick snap "fetch"...I used lots of praise...later once he was solid on all the commands I taught "leave it"...I used lots of praise...I just think it is such BS that you have to "Force" a dog- I don't want to have to "Force" a dog to do anything- I want a relationship with the dog so that the dog wants to do anything for me- wants to please me...only this type of relationship will come with reward and positive training and minimum correction when required.
Light force fetch, or not force fetch ? and:
"All mine handle at distance; non is FF'd or CC'd. FF may well fit into your training program but it isn't a neccessary or vital part of training a sound retriever."
????
On and off scented points?
In and out of scented areas?
Past old or poison falls?
Through or across MORE than lessor "factors"?
I haven't seen the unforced dog that does it. My first retrievers were not force fetched and were retrieving and "fetching" machines. What they lacked was adequate pressure response, and consequently what I lacked were the tools necessary to truly teach these animals to complete retrieving and handling tasks that were above the average standard.
You can do a "trained" retrieve by following the same process as force fetching, except by using positive reinforcement instead of negative. What you won't develop is any ability to compel, motivate, or otherwise move your retriever to retrieves and concepts that you otherwise could.
I use a clicker here and there, and understand operant conditioning, and applied secondary reinforcement very well. When your highly motivated retriever establishes a mistaken/incorrect hunt, or refuses a cast due to reinforcing or competing factors in the field that are "outside of your pocket" - your ability to teach will be limited at best, and in most cases nulified without the FF foundation and basics.
It's very easy to promote the non FF concept to owners and handlers who don't intend, need, or who have never seen the abilities and talent of top performing competitive retrievers.
Comparing British and Irish competition and dogs to North American competition and dogs is comparing apples and cabbages...? Don't get me wrong, it's about the standard, talent and ability you hope to instill in your animal. The British/Irish standard is alien to the North American standard, expectation and purpose. I think there are pros and cons for both, however believe that dogs trained in North American methods can compete in British/Irish types of events well, but don't know the same to be true in reverse. ?
Retrieving regards,
Wayne Dibbley
"All mine handle at distance; non is FF'd or CC'd. FF may well fit into your training program but it isn't a neccessary or vital part of training a sound retriever."
????
On and off scented points?
In and out of scented areas?
Past old or poison falls?
Through or across MORE than lessor "factors"?
I haven't seen the unforced dog that does it. My first retrievers were not force fetched and were retrieving and "fetching" machines. What they lacked was adequate pressure response, and consequently what I lacked were the tools necessary to truly teach these animals to complete retrieving and handling tasks that were above the average standard.
You can do a "trained" retrieve by following the same process as force fetching, except by using positive reinforcement instead of negative. What you won't develop is any ability to compel, motivate, or otherwise move your retriever to retrieves and concepts that you otherwise could.
I use a clicker here and there, and understand operant conditioning, and applied secondary reinforcement very well. When your highly motivated retriever establishes a mistaken/incorrect hunt, or refuses a cast due to reinforcing or competing factors in the field that are "outside of your pocket" - your ability to teach will be limited at best, and in most cases nulified without the FF foundation and basics.
It's very easy to promote the non FF concept to owners and handlers who don't intend, need, or who have never seen the abilities and talent of top performing competitive retrievers.
Comparing British and Irish competition and dogs to North American competition and dogs is comparing apples and cabbages...? Don't get me wrong, it's about the standard, talent and ability you hope to instill in your animal. The British/Irish standard is alien to the North American standard, expectation and purpose. I think there are pros and cons for both, however believe that dogs trained in North American methods can compete in British/Irish types of events well, but don't know the same to be true in reverse. ?
Retrieving regards,
Wayne Dibbley
Wayne,
It is only my experience hunting / talking / training with others. My old club (2 yrs ago) would put on a booth at a sports show. I usually worked a couple of shifts and would talk to 3 times as many people with dogs (basically untrained) as we had members in the club in just one shift.
I've hunted with probably 20 different people the each of the last 2 years I've been in ND (so maybe 40 total) in large pheasant parties. I was the only one with a FF dog. (Yes, I do ff)
It is only my personal experience. I also had one pro tell me that 95% of dogs in the field couldn't do an intermediate level (pick your org) test.
Absolutely nothing scientific.
I never once suggested these methods would get you to higher level of performance even a SH.
I was only saying that than a good hunting can be had without FF. I've been around alot of them. I think there are many more dogs in the fields in November that aren't FF than those that are. Maybe its just where I lived (WI, Eastern WA, and now ND)
The people posting here take their dogs WAY more seriously than the ave Joe hunter.
Did in your experience as a guide encounter a lot of trained (capable of delivery to hand, whistle sit, FF, simple blinds - SH level) dogs?
Brian
It is only my experience hunting / talking / training with others. My old club (2 yrs ago) would put on a booth at a sports show. I usually worked a couple of shifts and would talk to 3 times as many people with dogs (basically untrained) as we had members in the club in just one shift.
I've hunted with probably 20 different people the each of the last 2 years I've been in ND (so maybe 40 total) in large pheasant parties. I was the only one with a FF dog. (Yes, I do ff)
It is only my personal experience. I also had one pro tell me that 95% of dogs in the field couldn't do an intermediate level (pick your org) test.
Absolutely nothing scientific.
I never once suggested these methods would get you to higher level of performance even a SH.
I was only saying that than a good hunting can be had without FF. I've been around alot of them. I think there are many more dogs in the fields in November that aren't FF than those that are. Maybe its just where I lived (WI, Eastern WA, and now ND)
The people posting here take their dogs WAY more seriously than the ave Joe hunter.
Did in your experience as a guide encounter a lot of trained (capable of delivery to hand, whistle sit, FF, simple blinds - SH level) dogs?
Brian
I'm in the process of bringing on my 10th gun dog without FF, and about to throw in the towel - on discussing the subject with FF True Believers. But since you're not that, I'll take a shot at your questions.
First and foremost to have a top-self gun dog that does what you're apt to require of it, you'll have to do for yourself much of what the process of FF does for its practitioners: provide clarity with regard to what is expected (through a building block process) and consistency with regard to that expectation through either conspiring to achieve your will or at least not letting Pup realize that you have not and get in the habit of testing, much less disregarding your authority.
And you'll have to learn do those things without much of the US mainstream retriever training blueprint to follow, because FF has become its lynchpin: whether it's puppy training that lets things slide that will later be "cleaned up" with FF or advanced work that depends on the dog's understanding that it can turn off pressure with correct action. When I watched Jackie Mertens' highly acclaimed puppy training DVD, I found myself cringing over things a FF practitioner might not give a second thought, like working pups on bumpers with long throw ropes that could trip them and interrupt the type of prompt delivery I'm anxious to condition from retrieve one. And if a momentum issue or some-such pokes its head up on down the more advanced training road, the mainstream yeoman "force-to" won't be available to combat it.
In any event, I'd think it much easier for most just to go with the mainstream flow and FF simply because there's a more complete blueprint to follow. Though I can't help but think that those capable of training and maintaining a competent gun dog without FF are also going to be the ones best able to maintain the foundation FF provides. The country is absolutely chock-a-block with FFed dogs that aren't worth feeding, from a hunting standpoint - and it seldom appears the dogs' fault.
First and foremost to have a top-self gun dog that does what you're apt to require of it, you'll have to do for yourself much of what the process of FF does for its practitioners: provide clarity with regard to what is expected (through a building block process) and consistency with regard to that expectation through either conspiring to achieve your will or at least not letting Pup realize that you have not and get in the habit of testing, much less disregarding your authority.
And you'll have to learn do those things without much of the US mainstream retriever training blueprint to follow, because FF has become its lynchpin: whether it's puppy training that lets things slide that will later be "cleaned up" with FF or advanced work that depends on the dog's understanding that it can turn off pressure with correct action. When I watched Jackie Mertens' highly acclaimed puppy training DVD, I found myself cringing over things a FF practitioner might not give a second thought, like working pups on bumpers with long throw ropes that could trip them and interrupt the type of prompt delivery I'm anxious to condition from retrieve one. And if a momentum issue or some-such pokes its head up on down the more advanced training road, the mainstream yeoman "force-to" won't be available to combat it.
In any event, I'd think it much easier for most just to go with the mainstream flow and FF simply because there's a more complete blueprint to follow. Though I can't help but think that those capable of training and maintaining a competent gun dog without FF are also going to be the ones best able to maintain the foundation FF provides. The country is absolutely chock-a-block with FFed dogs that aren't worth feeding, from a hunting standpoint - and it seldom appears the dogs' fault.
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