[Tim Carrion]

Is it my imagination or are judges being more tolerate of poor line mannners?
In recent years I've noticed an increase in all-age dogs being "sticky" on birds, not heeling to the line and excessive creeping.
How many attempts are acceptable to get a bird out of the dog's mouth? I think most of us have seen a dog run and sit on the mat before the handler is out of holding blind. Do find you find it acceptable for a dog to be 15-20+ yds in front of the handler when the last bird hits the ground?
The rules address these faults if repeated but what about the magnitude of these faults?

We all like to say we want to evaluate the dog's retrieving performance out in the field but has the line been forgotten?

Tim

 

[BonMallari]

the list of distinguished creepers in the FT game is long and filled with titles

 

[Buzz]

I'm pretty new at all this, but I haven't seen a dog 15-20 yards in front of the handler. I have seen quite a few 5 feet out front and I've seen handlers instructed to re-heel their dog.

It's been my impression that dogs going completely self employee'd at the line are not helping themselves.

I have seen more stickiness than extreme creepers.

 

[Goldenboy]

Is it my imagination or are judges being more tolerate of poor line mannners?
In recent years I've noticed an increase in all-age dogs being "sticky" on birds, not heeling to the line and excessive creeping.
How many attempts are acceptable to get a bird out of the dog's mouth? I think most of us have seen a dog run and sit on the mat before the handler is out of holding blind. Do find you find it acceptable for a dog to be 15-20+ yds in front of the handler when the last bird hits the ground?
The rules address these faults if repeated but what about the magnitude of these faults?

We all like to say we want to evaluate the dog's retrieving performance out in the field but has the line been forgotten?

Tim

Tim,

Boy, you nailed this one. I was also particualrly aware of an increase in the behaviors you mentioned this year and was taken aback. There has definitely been an erosion of the attention paid to these issues. A few highly experienced judges have told me that they only care about a break and not about excessive, and lengthy, creeping. Their feeling was those dogs would sort themselves out by not being able to accurately mark the birds and would drop themselves. One of these judges in particular, who might have judged more all-age Trials than anyone over the past twenty years, runs dogs who are wild indians, which may explain his attitude.

My belief is that line manners, coming to the line and at the line, and proper bird handling are integral parts of a trained retriever and, distinctly, a Field Trial dog. These are qualities that should be promoted. As a judge, I don't find these behaviors appealing and, as best I'm able with the cooperation of my co-judge, provide a mechanism to address them in some fashion. I did judge an Amateur this year where the difference between first and second place ultimately came down to the excessive vocalization of the second place dog.

I judged a qual this year where nearly half the field was sticky. Interestingly, to me at least, most of them were Goldens and I was conscious of trying to figure out why. Their breeding, was it somehow genetic? Or their training, too much/not the right kind of pressure?

Great topic!

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

This appears to be the case in the Hunt tests as well. Although in the lower stakes I've seen many dogs dropped for poor line manners, particularly noise, and I've seen judges setup tests, specifically designed to get the creepers to break, although there is perhaps too much lee-way in what is actually breaking. Seems like these things are often of secondary importance in the MH, & FT's. It's one of the major differences between the HRC/NAHRA tests and AKC, Line manners and lack of control will always drop you in those test.

 

[Handler Error]

This appears to be the case in the Hunt tests as well. Although in the lower stakes I've seen many dogs dropped for poor line manners...

You said stakes? Judges actually drop junior dogs for poor line manners? Isn't this a puppy stake where you can hold your dog? By puppy stake I mean delayed double with marks under 100 yards?

 

[Todd Caswell]

[poor line manners?/QUOTE]


Noise for sure..

 

[Scott Adams]

Nobody remembers the dog that sat still, or delivered tenderley.
Everyone loves the outstanding job in the field.
It says something about where our priorities are, and maybe, they are where they should be.
But then, my older dog is a creeper, and my younger one would be if I allowed it.
Is creeping bad behavior or exceptional style & desire?
I know it hasn't helped me much at trials.

 

[Thomas D]

This appears to be the case in the Hunt tests as well. Although in the lower stakes I've seen many dogs dropped for poor line manners, particularly noise, and I've seen judges setup tests, specifically designed to get the creepers to break, although there is perhaps too much lee-way in what is actually breaking. Seems like these things are often of secondary importance in the MH, & FT's. It's one of the major differences between the HRC/NAHRA tests and AKC, Line manners and lack of control will always drop you in those test.

Setting up tests specifically designed to get creepers to break (if that is their only motive) is simply poor judging.

 

[Pete Marcellus]

"We all like to say we want to evaluate the dog's retrieving performance out in the field but has the line been forgotten?"

Not when I'm judging

Pete

 

[LESTER LANGLEY]

I'm not sure whether line manners are getting worse on weekend trials, but it's not a trend at this years national. Even today, with 2 flyers. A few? Yes. A "trend"? No. I've been behind the line all of the week.

 

[Howard N]

I started trialing in 1993. In general, I think line manners were worse then than they are now in all age stakes. Minors...... who knows? Seems to wax and wane.

 

[Ken Guthrie]

I did judge an Amateur this year where the difference between first and second place ultimately came down to the excessive vocalization of the second place dog.

Great topic!

Excessive? 2nd place?

I can see why line manners may be deteriorating.

 

[Goldenboy]

Excessive? 2nd place?

I can see why line manners may be deteriorating.

I know what you're saying and it's something that I've thought about a lot, then and since. I made a note about the noise on my judges sheet in the first series, the dog's work on his first series marks, and subsequent blinds, was excellent. I was disturbed by the vocalization on the last series, most particualarly during the honor. I felt that in some fashion it impacted the running dog. The vocal dog and the eventual winner had clearly seperated themselves from the field. My co-judge and I discussed this at some length. At the time, and I know you know what it's like when your in the moment and don't have the benefit of hindsight, we both felt comfortable with our choice. Through hindsight, it will be an issue that I discuss in advance with my co-judge to form a consensus along with creeping and other line issues.

Live and learn and part of the process of getting better as a judge and maintaining the letter, and intent, of the rules.

 

[ErinsEdge]

Is it my imagination or are judges being more tolerate of poor line mannners?

Creeping has been around for awhile. I think judges who have dogs with poorer line manners are more tolerant. I personally think the line manners are better around here than I can remember. If the dog is so far in front of a handler, the handler can't influence the dog. I can think of a dog that should have won a national I watched, but lost it for his creeping on all the marks in the 9th. When the handler allows the dog to do the runningthere is no team and the dogs will often fail themselves and I think judges believe this so they are not penalized. Sticking and noise are other matters.

 

[Ken Guthrie]

My co-judge and I discussed this at some length. At the time, and I know you know what it's like when your in the moment and don't have the benefit of hindsight, we both felt comfortable with our choice.

And you know, that's all that really matters. If you and your co-judge assessed the rule book and made a judgement call together...than your placements were legit that weekend. Case closed. Awesome response.

Live and learn and part of the process of getting better as a judge and maintaining the letter, and intent, of the rules.

Amen. Your responses should be published and posted on every thread in regards to judging a field trial.

 

[Van Ames]

Mark, Your thoughts are excellent for sure. When Copper was going through his "wild child" stage I was often dropped or given a green ribbon when his work in the field had been superb. It was the correct thing to do.

Judging in my mind requires a balanced approach to what you see on a given day, and as in the case of your co judge, many of us have different tolerances for different issues. Without that difference I am afraid that we would all be driving the same make and model every weekend and perhaps the same color.

Red regards,

Van

 

[DarrinGreene]

Tim, I don't know about the trend but I would say this about creeping...

I think sitting steady is a training issue, vs. pinpoint marking which to me is much more of a naturally acquired talent. Noise, to me, falls into the same category to a degree or another so...

I can train em to be steady and shut thier mouth, I can't train em to have the eye sight and memory it takes to be a pinpoint marker. Give me a pinpoint marking dog that creeps or is a little vocal over a steady, quiet dog that does a mediocre job any day, if I have a choice of a dog to buy a pup out of.

This assumes of course that there isn't a quiet, steady, poinpoint marking dog in the trial that weekend to choose from, of course

In a hunt test, especially a Master, I have had some extensive discussions about line manners with co-judges and others. There, I think a quiet steady dog that does a decent job of marking is the prefernce. Two different games two different intentions, two different standards, as far as I'm concerned. A dog that creeps gets shot. A dog that whines spooks birds. In evalutating a hunting dog/handler team, I expect neither.

Of course, I look more toward the FT program as the evaluator of sires and dams for puppy selection.

Just my opinion, as you well know.

I know what you expect out of your dogs so I know why you would ask the question. It's a lot of work to get em to be still if they have a lot of drive. You may feel at times as if it's not rewarded when a dog that's 10 yards in front of the line all of the time places above you with pretty much equal marking at the trial.

You guys have all taught me though that eventually, that creepin and whinin and carryin on will come back to bite that other dog though and so far, I think I see what you mean.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

"Setting up tests specifically designed to get creepers to break (if that is their only motive) is simply poor judging."

Is it poor judging or just testing control? I don't want to be in a duck blind or hunting upland with a dog who continously breaks, or has to be constantly reminded to come back, stay still, and shut-up. It takes away from my hunting experience! Although the judges might be getting a little carried away, with a really close in your face walk-up flyer, or when they actually shoot the go bird from beside or behind you. Still, even though we seem to be getting further and further away from it, the Point of testing is to judge all aspects of a hunting partner, steadiness should be on par with desire.