[greyduck]

Hi all. I am currently FFing my 7 month old GRF and generally following the Lardy method. I have forced probably 10-12 dogs in my life, but it's been 8-10 years since my last. I was in good practice at the time and was around a lot of different dogs often, so I'm a bit rusty.

Anyway, I'm on day 12 of ear pinch. She just took a couple of days to start really reaching for the bumper, but then it took me 4-5 days to get her to the ground consistently. I've been working on consistency there for the last 3 days or so and generalizing with different objects, including a wooden buck because she's got a habit of cigaring fun bumpers. I also transitioned to the yard because the first half of FF was done in the garage due to weather. I've really been focusing on attitude with her and she wags her tail at hold/heel consistently and is generally a happy pup, so my teaching method with her has been light pressure to learn what I want, then increase pressure if I feel like she understands but gives me refusals. If I pinch, she picks it up and she's pretty snappy about it. Yesterday, I tried to ease into walking fetch in the yard and I started getting refusals. Every refusal was met with a pinch to the next bumper.

She's a bit avoidant (unlike the last dog I FFed) so a couple of times, it's been difficult for me to get to her collar while walking. She got away from me twice, so I shut that down, backed up, and did some revisiting to standard pinching to the ground. I tried again today and was met with some pretty blatant refusals, so I would back her up, bring her to heel, sit her in front of bumper, and pinch to bumper. Again, no problems when pinching.

My questions for y'all on the above are twofold: (1) do you think I'm trying to move to walking fetch too quickly/should I just stay with pinching to the ground and increasing pressure on any freebie refusals? (2) what do y'all think about introducing collar fetch prior to walking fetch? She is cc'd to sit only, but part of me feels like the collar may be a better, consistent way to apply pressure during walking fetch relative to an avoidant dog.

 

[Daren Galloway]

She's a bit avoidant (unlike the last dog I FFed) so a couple of times, it's been difficult for me to get to her collar while walking. She got away from me twice, so I shut that down, backed up, and did some revisiting to standard pinching to the ground. I tried again today and was met with some pretty blatant refusals, so I would back her up, bring her to heel, sit her in front of bumper, and pinch to bumper. Again, no problems when pinching.

My questions for y'all on the above are twofold: (1) do you think I'm trying to move to walking fetch too quickly/should I just stay with pinching to the ground and increasing pressure on any freebie refusals? (2) what do y'all think about introducing collar fetch prior to walking fetch? She is cc'd to sit only, but part of me feels like the collar may be a better, consistent way to apply pressure during walking fetch relative to an avoidant dog.

You should have her on lead so when she tries to avoid you can reel her in and pinch her to the bumper. Or just walk towards the bumper with your hand on her ear already. I do not think you'll get a better reaction with the collar, you'd be introducing a new form of pressure to perform a task she's already avoiding, I want them to know the task and do it properly before CC them to it.

 

[greyduck]

Thanks Daren. I should've clarified - she is on lead for walking fetch. That's the only way I'm able to reel her in if she bugs. I've tried walking towards the bumper with my hand on her ear already, but I pinch against the collar buckle and it makes her really antsy. I've gotten a couple of barrel rolls out of it. Hence my thought on the collar. Your point is taken though, and that's what the other half of brain has been telling me.

I have been leaning towards just spending a few more days pinching to the bumper in the yard, adding some slight movement, and not always starting from sit. On the one hand, I like the idea of continuous progress through FF and not staying at one place for too long. On the other, she is my personal dog, I want her attitude to continue to be positive, and I don't want to rush her through with too much pressure. I'd rather her come out of the back side a happy pup with a solid foundation.

 

[Pete]

I always do collar fetch before walking fetch . It has always seemed like a super human feat to try to catch the dog under the collar and grab an ear in a timely fashion
Pete

 

[greyduck]

I always do collar fetch before walking fetch . It has always seemed like a super human feat to try to catch the dog under the collar and grab an ear in a timely fashion
Pete

Thanks Pete. I think that's part of my issue, i.e. timely getting a pinch to make her understand that the correct is for not fetching the bumper while walking. I've never done collar fetch prior to walking fetch. What's your process there? CC (fetch nick fetch) to basic fetch, CC to ground, then apply collar pressure on walking fetch?

I am glad to hear I'm not the only one that struggles. I'm finding out that my dexterity isn't quite what it was when I was 23.

 

[Tobias]

I start walking fetch with one bumper. I have the dog on a six foot lead, e-collar and flat collar. I hold the dog's collar and ear so that I can immediately apply pressure if there is a refusal.

When I start walking fetch, I first do a few fetches from the floor/ground to make sure the dog is on the same page I am - that the dog is really ready for walking fetch. I place the bumper in front of the dog about 3 feet (dog at heel position). Pinch and walk forward with the dog...when the dog has the bumper, I have her hold and heel for several feet before sit/drop... About 3-4 fetches into the session, once the dog has had good success. I have the dog at heel and drop the bumper on my right side - opposite side the dog is on. Walk a few feet with the dog at heel. Turn, walk toward the bumper and command 'fetch'. At this point in the training session, the dog should really not have a refusal - she knows the bumper is there and already has had success.. For this first one, my goal is NOT to have a refusal (which is why I start with something the dog can be successful with). Then I walk with the dog at heel, holding the bumper, for a few steps. Stop/sit/drop. Drop the bumper at my side, then continue walking. (hand on collar and ear). Turn around, walk toward the bumper and command 'fetch'... wash rinse repeat

After a day or two of this, I use two bumpers... then 3, then full blown walking fetch.

I have done collar fetch before and after walking fetch. I like doing it with ear pinch and/or stick fetch (depending on the dog).

Also - if she is needing consistent reinforcement on freebies, you've probably advanced too quickly or you are not applying enough pressure. Also, have you had her work through light restraint? This is something I do once the dog is moving forward to fetch. I do it maybe only 4-5 times, but I restrain the dog while pinching her ear to teach her not to give up. Maybe 1 or 2 seconds worth of restraint. The first time is usually met with confusion, but after that they tend to work to get to the bumper.

 

[Daren Galloway]

I've gotten a couple of barrel rolls out of it. Hence my thought on the collar. Your point is taken though, and that's what the other half of brain has been telling me.

I've gotten that too and just forced through it until the bumper is in their mouth, even if I have to put it there, but they NEVER get out of the pressure until the bumper is in their mouth.

 

[Pete]

Thanks Pete. I think that's part of my issue, i.e. timely getting a pinch to make her understand that the correct is for not fetching the bumper while walking. I've never done collar fetch prior to walking fetch. What's your process there? CC (fetch nick fetch) to basic fetch, CC to ground, then apply collar pressure on walking fetch?

I am glad to hear I'm not the only one that struggles. I'm finding out that my dexterity isn't quite what it was when I was 23.

From where you are at I would start low constant with the collar and with the paint roller right in front of this face just as you started with ear pinch. Pull the dog into the roller if needed. if he clams up proceed similarly like you did with ear pinch by pulling him into the bumper and prying his mouth open with a finger and rolling the roller in. If that doesn't work you will have to raise the pressure considerably. Ear pressure and collar pressure feels different to the dog so you may have to develop an artistic talent for this. I always repeat commands at least every 2 seconds when constant pressure is applied and do what ever is necessary to help the dog shut the pressure off. Continue through the process until the dog is picking the roller off the ground. Take small steps . Don't try to go to far in 1 session just because he is catching on. Let him enjoy the success. Make sure he fetches well with or without pressure to the ground. Then get a 2 inch bumper and start from the beginning again and continue through the process as you originally did using ear pressure. It should go faster than it did with the roller. Make sure he fetches to the ground with or without constant pressure. Start walking fetch with 1- 2 inch bumper that he see's you toss a few feet in front of you tell him to fetch only use pressure when needed. I then take a few days before I do walking fetch and toss bumpers sometimes making him sit sometimes not and make him return to heel (if you have done that process). It really helps loosen them up You will have to determine what's needed. So much of this is art so I can't describe that in words. Once you get to walking fetch and if you get a refusal (which by this time is seldom,,you may need to stick him to get him to balk,,, all you have to do is push the button. At this point it may only be a nick just depends on the dog.
I hope this helps
Pete

 

[greyduck]

From where you are at I would start low constant with the collar and with the paint roller right in front of this face just as you started with ear pinch. Pull the dog into the roller if needed. if he clams up proceed similarly like you did with ear pinch by pulling him into the bumper and prying his mouth open with a finger and rolling the roller in. If that doesn't work you will have to raise the pressure considerably. Ear pressure and collar pressure feels different to the dog so you may have to develop an artistic talent for this. I always repeat commands at least every 2 seconds when constant pressure is applied and do what ever is necessary to help the dog shut the pressure off. Continue through the process until the dog is picking the roller off the ground. Take small steps . Don't try to go to far in 1 session just because he is catching on. Let him enjoy the success. Make sure he fetches well with or without pressure to the ground. Then get a 2 inch bumper and start from the beginning again and continue through the process as you originally did using ear pressure. It should go faster than it did with the roller. Make sure he fetches to the ground with or without constant pressure. Start walking fetch with 1- 2 inch bumper that he see's you toss a few feet in front of you tell him to fetch only use pressure when needed. I then take a few days before I do walking fetch and toss bumpers sometimes making him sit sometimes not and make him return to heel (if you have done that process). It really helps loosen them up You will have to determine what's needed. So much of this is art so I can't describe that in words. Once you get to walking fetch and if you get a refusal (which by this time is seldom,,you may need to stick him to get him to balk,,, all you have to do is push the button. At this point it may only be a nick just depends on the dog.
I hope this helps
Pete

Thanks for the detailed response Pete. I think I'm going to stay consistent with pinching to the ground for a couple of more days and incorporating some slight movement, then trying again with my hand on her collar. If I can't progress that way, I'm going to revisit the collar fetch idea and going to use your post as a roadmap.

 

[greyduck]

Hey folks. Just wanted to give an update and I may just continually update it through her progress for others stressing about FF.

I think I progressed too quickly and set her back a bit, which is a product of me being out of training for several years and training to try to keep a timeline and not training my pup. After my original post, I gave her a day off then spent one more session trying to correct the walking fetch issues. It didn't go well and she was able to get out of pressure once or twice because of my lack of dexterity. She also acted very stressed and started dropping the bumper after pickup when I'd pinch her to the ground. To try to improve her attitude, I gave her a couple of marks with the launcher with her on the long line and was met with her dropping the bumper several times on the return and not being focused at all. Very bad session, hah.

Yesterday, I just brought her back into the garage and did some basic pinch to the ground with the training buck using lighter pressure. I was met with a couple of refusals, but we worked through it. By the end of the session, she was doing well on both buck and bumper with light pressure, though her hold was still a little lose. No drops, but the buck would slide around a bit. This morning, I brought her back into the garage and was only met with one dramatic refusal, but pressured through it to buck in mouth.

I'm going to try to stop worrying about how many days I've been into force, and will only progress to walking fetch again when she is reliably picking up the bumper off the ground both with pressure and occasionally without. I also want her to enjoy her success. I talked to a pro trainer friend of mine and he also emphasized not rushing her and not trying to overwhelm her with pressure, especially being that she's a female golden. If I get back to the walking fetch stage and there are still some problems, I'm going to back up and collar fetch her in line with Pete's method. So anyway, day 17 of pinch and on we go.

Tobias - yes, I've had her work through light restraint. She lunges for the bumper quite well, as long as my hand is on her collar. The trick with her is she will lunge for the bumper but if I don't pinch, sometimes she just won't pick it up. I've dealt with dogs before though.

 

[Tobias]

Greyduck. Have you ever timed a FF session?
It is very easy to go too long. I set the timer on my phone for 5 minutes. When the alarm goes off, I work out of the session with at least 2 successful repetitions, hopefully the last one without needing reinforcement, and often with the bumper right in front of the dog.

 

[greyduck]

Greyduck. Have you ever timed a FF session?
It is very easy to go too long. I set the timer on my phone for 5 minutes. When the alarm goes off, I work out of the session with at least 2 successful repetitions, hopefully the last one without needing reinforcement, and often with the bumper right in front of the dog.

Yes. I should've mentioned that as well. Historically I've tried to limit my FF sessions to 10 minutes, 2-3 times a day. With this pup, I try for 2-3 sessions a day with 8 minute timer set, and I do the same as you. Once the timer goes off, I try to get to one successful rep without reinforcement, then I do about 30 seconds of heeling with object in mouth to get the tail wagging, praise pup for being a good pup, and leave session. Part of my mistake with walking fetch was getting too frustrated with her and drawing out the sessions to try to get the concept across, which I think confused her more and just created unnecessary stress. Thinking like a human and not like a dog.

 

[Pete]

Rather than time your sessions.If you can, let the dog tell you when their at their peak for the session. I would think at the stage your at that 4 or 5 minutes is plenty. Just my opinion but 3 sessions is a lot, Sometimes when you go to long the dog starts to go backwards . Sometimes if you stay on FF to long the dog will start to go sour and you will spend to much time fighting with it. (There are very difficult dogs out there which would be the exception to this) Resistance is good but you need to get through it in as short of a time possible.
Good Luck
Pete

 

[greyduck]

Rather than time your sessions. If you can, let the dog tell you when their at their peak for the session. I would think at the stage your at that 4 or 5 minutes is plenty. Just my opinion but 3 sessions is a lot, Sometimes when you go to long the dog starts to go backwards . Sometimes if you stay on FF to long the dog will start to go sour and you will spend to much time fighting with it. (There are very difficult dogs out there which would be the exception to this) Resistance is good but you need to get through it in as short of a time possible.
Good Luck
Pete

Thanks Pete. That has been a big concern of mine and I've definitely made the mistake of drawing a couple of sessions out too long with her. I just did two 7-8 minute sessions with her today and she did pretty well and her attitude is up. I'm going to keep her here until the end of the week or until she's good for the most part on ground freebies, emphasizing her success. Then we will ease back into walking fetch. If I can't get her to be successful, my plan is to revisit the collar method.

I think my two biggest mistakes with her thus far have been (a) letting sessions draw out too long to that point that both of us are frustrated, and (b) letting her escape the ear pressure once or twice. I'm gathering this just because prior to attempting walking fetch the first time, I wasn't really getting refusals from sit to ground, but when we backed up, she tried to refuse a couple of times and escape pressure.

The good news is she still likes me and loves bumpers so it would appear that I haven't irrevocably ruined her life.

 

[greyduck]

I wanted to update this thread for the benefit of anybody searching for force help in the future. June is now through FTP and we are about to start double T. Dog is happy, I'm happy, and she's running her first started HRC test this weekend.

After posting this thread, I wound up backing her out of force fetch for about a week. I reviewed formal obedience with a heeling stick to try to correct her bugging at heel. She learned to accept/beat the stick pressure pretty well and then I reinforced with the collar and collar conditioned to here. After about a week of that, we eased back into FF. Within three sessions, she was ready for walking fetch. At that point, I collar fetched her similar to Pete's post earlier. I would reinforce any refusals with ear pinch. After a couple of sessions of collar fetch, we moved right into walking fetch and she figured it out quickly. We did walking fetch for about a week, then started lining out several bumpers and heeling her past a couple without letting her fetch to teach her that fetch was a command. I didn't get many refusals, but I would always reinforce the first one with an ear pinch, and the next one with the collar. That only took a few sessions and she did great. We then did stick fetch. I have skipped stick fetch in the past, but I wanted to proof her since we'd had some FF issues. She did great. I also did stick to pile with her for the same reasons.

She's a little delicate with picking the bumpers up sometimes (i.e. she's not jamming her mouth into the ground and back up), but she's very snappy on the fetch (and now back) command. I look at this as an idiosyncrasy of hers and it hasn't caused me any issues yet. The same trait turns up in FTP sometimes and she's "careful" about picking up a bumper, but she doesn't shop or anything like that. She also runs hard to the pile and runs hard coming back, so I've decided to let it go.

Some reflections on force:

1. In my experience, goldens (especially the females) are not good candidates to be pressured through problems. Teach, teach, teach, and then reinforce. They are attrition dogs. That said, once they get it, they get it.
2. Take your time, believe in your pup, and be patient. If you get frustrated, hang it up for the day and go do something else. Both of you will benefit.
3. Don't be afraid to try a new approach if something isn't working, even if that new approach is just taking some time off.
4. Try to keep sessions short. Sometimes I fall into the trap of wanting so badly to end on a high note or with a success, that I draw sessions out too long which just frustrates the dog and decreases any likelihood of success. In this case, the key is simplifying and accepting that success takes many forms.
5. Keep up marking sessions during force. It's good for pup's attitude. I had shut this down because I hadn't collar conditioned to here yet.

 

[Tobias]

Excellent news! Always is nice to hear updates on these kind of posts.