[Keith Farmer]

do you find it odd Keith that in this one instance John Fallon and Ted Shih are in agreement with each other?

They are certainly entitled to be wrong....



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[john fallon]

They are certainly entitled to be wrong....



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On this matter Keith, that is highly unlikely, since we speak in concert with a group "with over 300 tears of combined experience, with hundreds of field champions to their credit, including National champions, and untold thousands of hours observing, training, and handling in the field."

Counted among this group are the entire Retriever Advisory Committees Subcommittee on Rules and the members of the BOD of both the National clubs.

We along with "the contributors and supporters of this discussion of judging of retriever field trials share a common view of the judges task"

john

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Third-The assertion by Paul that this topic is an issue of one dog beaching 12 inches before another is a gross misrepresentation of the topic. I asserted that a dog which beaches "way early"...12 inches is not way early. If we are going to have a discussion then please represent the sides of the issue correctly...fair enough?

You apparently can't see the forest for the tree's. You missed the point of my post.

/Paul

 

[rednek]

This test looks like two down the dam,not two down the shore,if that piece of land wasn't there it would be one shoreline.Think of it geographically,not as a test,but as a real shoreline or beach if you prefer,every time you have a point of land,or a bay,or inlet,you have a new beach,or shoreline,with it's own name.
As a training set-up I feel this may be too complicated to teach the "two down the shore"concept,I would prefer to use a nice square farmers pond,with nice straight edges.

 

[john fallon]

Here is a good discription an examples of "(two) down the shore" marks

http://www.nomadicretrievers.net/blog/2011/06/20/Two-Down-the-Shore.aspx


Some more "down the shore" marks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqQ-7D7Nb8Y

I hope this helps those who are reading this thread and do not know.

john

 

[Ted Shih]

First-I will make one more statement about the concept of two down the shore: In my scenario I had two birds thrown on the very same shore requiring the gunner to move about 100 yards in a straight line and throw the second bird after the dog picked up the first bird. Both birds landed on the dam of the pond on the same shore...anyone who does not understand the idea that two birds thrown on the same shore equals two birds thrown on the same shore is simply misinformed...in my opinion.
.

First, I make no comment concerning the merits of your test.

However, that test does not represent what I would call two down the shore.

Second, there is a big difference between two on the same shore and two down the shore

See diagram below

If you shoot G1, then G2 and run from Mat 1, you have what I would call two on the same shore

If you run from Mat 2, you have what I call two down the shore

 

[Howard N]

First, I make no comment concerning the merits of your test.

However, that test does not represent what I would call two down the shore.

Second, there is a big difference between two on the same shore and two down the shore

See diagram below

If you shoot G1, then G2 and run from Mat 1, you have what I would call two on the same shore

If you run from Mat 2, you have what I call two down the shore

No common jargon in this game. I call both of these two down the shore. One is tighter than the other.

I do not call Keith's water setup two down the shore, those points cloud the issue to me. But if Keith wants to call them two down the shore, works for me. Look at my statement above.

 

[Keith Farmer]

If we keep on we can get to 10 pages about whether or not two marks on one shore equal two down the shore or not...

By the way, I am not trying to teach two down the shore as a concept in this setup. The dogs I ran on the setup have been taught two down the shore...I am upping the ante here.

Again, what I have attempted to do in this setup is establish suction to a close mark and land then ask the dogs to stay off the land and fight the factors of the suction plus the wind to accomplish the task...should not be difficult to grasp.

You guys can call my two marks whatever you want....I will just say they are two down the shore.

By the way John and Ken...the weather will be in the upper 70s and low 80s all week...book your flights and come on down. Got some really gnarly stuff planned this week!

Ken, you bring some syrup and I will trade you some of the south's best barbeque sauce...Richards...unbelievably good stuff!



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[jeff evans]

I certainly wouldn't want to argue terminology but common verbiage is only good for our game, especially when things are evolving as fast as they are. Two down the shore or three down the shore is really a concept of swimming past or by the old fall and beaching somewhere between the gun and the bird, I have more precise expectations of where they can get out but it depends on which dog I'm training and what his holes are, although I will add the more you enforce this message of getting out exactly on time you may be going backwards for all age training, ie they wont want to touch any land especially a point and that's where the long retired will be or the short check down and pushing off a point can be fatal if the test is set up correctly. This is a common concept in all of our training, those that compete that is. By reducing the angle changes the test for me. You've got some concept in each bird, good training test. The short mark just isn't tight enough to the long mark for me to call it a TDS concept. This is a great thread, has the potential to dispell many rumors on what a food test is and what's not. Keith thanks for taking the time to share this with us, don't get sucked into an old fall with people that will argue the sky isn't blue At the end of the day you accomplished your objective it sounds and that's what's important about training dogs, having an objective and teaching that objective, good on at least you are out training, we have 2 foot of snow here where it's not supposed to snow much at all if any so I'm giving them a rest for a few days until I can see grass, all though those Alaskans are going to call me a sissy! Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

You guys can call my two marks whatever you want....I will just say they are two down the shore.
By the way John and Ken...the weather will be in the upper 70s and low 80s all week...book your flights and come on down. Got some really gnarly stuff planned this week!
.

here the day started at 9 above but got up to a balmy 25, and on the morrow, rain. Dogs are gonna fall down just pooping.
Green with envy but stubborn about terminologyI am.;-)
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[Ricky Elston]

nice water

 

[john fallon]

If we keep on we can get to 10 pages about whether or not two marks on one shore equal two down the shore or not...

By the way, I am not trying to teach two down the shore as a concept in this setup. The dogs I ran on the setup have been taught two down the shore...I am upping the ante here.

Again, what I have attempted to do in this setup is establish suction to a close mark and land then ask the dogs to stay off the land and fight the factors of the suction plus the wind to accomplish the task...should not be difficult to grasp.

You guys can call my two marks whatever you want....I will just say they are two down the shore.

By the way John and Ken...the weather will be in the upper 70s and low 80s all week...book your flights and come on down. Got some really gnarly stuff planned this week!

Ken, you bring some syrup and I will trade you some of the south's best barbeque sauce...Richards...unbelievably good stuff!



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810 Mi @ 15 Mi /gal......Avg 60 mi/hr = it aint no day trip!!!

If I could hook a week or two together I'd be down in a heartbeat;-)

john

 

[Keith Farmer]

stubborn about terminology I am.:wink:

Me too...

I also hate the cold



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[Keith Farmer]

nice water

Indeed, but just wait for future pics...



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[Sue Kiefer]

I wouldn't nessesary repeat any mark at that test the dog failed(cheated).Especially in a youngster. I may/would find another piece of water.Or if the cheating is bad than go back to running decheating drills someplace else.
I don't want my water marks to be a bad chamber of horrors everytime my babies see water marks.
IMHPO.
Sue

 

[Keith Farmer]

I wouldn't nessesary repeat any mark at that test the dog failed(cheated).Especially in a youngster. I may/would find another piece of water.Or if the cheating is bad than go back to running decheating drills someplace else.
I don't want my water marks to be a bad chamber of horrors everytime my babies see water marks.
IMHPO.
Sue

Again, this is a gross misrepresentation of what one does in teaching a setup like this...how on earth would you consider giving a mild correction (if any correction at all) in a scenario that is well within the range of the dogs running (no BABIES run setups like this) then re-running the particular mark the dog had difficulty with as being equal to creating a "bad chamber of horrors"?

Further, how many pieces of water does one have to duplicate such a setup? I know that I have received numerous corresponding replies telling me how nice that water is. This tells me one thing, and I am already fully aware of this fact, that water such as we have is precious and not run of the mill.

I will say this...If my dogs fail on a setup that they are ready to run with minor help they will re-run it until they get it correct...no ifs, ands, or buts.


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[Sue Kiefer]

Are you looking at compliments of how nice your water is .
Well hell yes its gorgeuous especially since I'm sitting up here in Wis. where the dam weather today is 28 and it can't make up its mind if it wants to rain or snow so its doing both.
Brag away..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

We are still talking about teaching and Derby dogs right?
Wow
Sue

 

[Keith Farmer]

No...not looking for compliments but thanks!!

I am just bustin' your chops Sue BUT I do want to make sure folks don't get the wrong idea and think that somehow we are being unfair to dogs by presenting such scenarios for them.

If you look back at the start of this thread you will see that my dogs which run the type of setup I posted (which is rather simple by the way and really just a gut-check for the dogs that are actually competing at the derby level) are taught early...like from 12 weeks on...to stay in the water. When they are derby age they have a commitment to get in and stay in (or at least they should).

Re-running a setup like this is routine for dogs stepping up or for one that bucks a little when they know better through being properly taught. No horrors allowed! Success breeds success...



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[Keith Farmer]

9 pages and counting....


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[Howard N]

I consider the test put up by Keith as a derby setup. If you called it a 3rd series derby I doubt you'd get to many people saying different. There's always people saying it's not a good test but dogs have to be able to do the concepts involved so it's a good training test.

How do you teach this Sue? This is a pretty easy derby test but not a baby test. Dogs who attempt this should be swim by'd and handling.

If you want a baby test, then move out to the near point and run two singles from there. Real beginning dogs get a big white bumper out in the water so they don't have to touch the bottom before they get to the bird. You don't want them running the bank on the way back. On the long bird you could have the gunner come in along the dike and throw to the front of the long point the other dogs crossed.

Like I said, it's a good training setup. Not an all age setup but certainly appropriate for swim by'd handling dogs who have had a few marks, and if your truck has some babies on it then move up on the point and throw the birds, maybe real visible bumpers into the water.

I forgot to mention, I do repeat poor work.