[Matt McKenzie]

I don’t want to start any sire bashing but would be interested in hearing opinions on lines that seem to have few cruciate issues. Do you think some lines tend to produce a lower incidence of knee issues? If so, which ones?

 

[ripline]

Great topic, but I hold no hope that those who know will say anything at all to educate those that yearn for healthy pups, but aren't privy to the info.

 

[EdA]

Great topic, but I hold no hope that those who know will say anything at all to educate those that yearn for healthy pups, but aren't privy to the info.

In a community this small (field trials) where our judges are our peers there is ZERO incentive to name names because ultimately someone(s) will be offended. And since it is a two way street who could know if the sire or dam should be implicated. In all likelihood it is a combination of the two so trying to avoid something to the detriment of trying to get something (high performance) is probably counterproductive.

 

[BonMallari]

as Dr A pointed out even bringing up a sires name nonchalantly is starting gossip, and thats how many dogs have gotten some negative reputations, just because someone heard of someone that had a dog that had this or that...

 

[saltgrass]

MM just as stated above wouldn't be wise to point them out.

Had a well known name in the FT game tell me 10 yrs ago or so that he wouldn't do the breeding i was asking about due to the DAM in the line breeding being known for throwing bad elbows. But would still do it if i wanted to
take the chance. Needless to say i went with a different SIRE...

 

[moscowitz]

Should you be able to tell by the structure of the dam and sire.?Structure/angle?

 

[EdA]

Should you be able to tell by the structure of the dam and sire.?Structure/angle?

I tried replying no but no was too short.😉

 

[Gary M]

With respect for what Dr A and Mr Bon said, what about a thread like the EIC Results Thread, where YOU post YOUR dog’s registered name if it suffered a torn cruciate? You don’t get to post about someone you know or heard of that had a torn cruciate or who you think throws pups with bad cruciate’s. That would be gossip or second hand information and not allowed. You only post about dogs you own, period! Might be some unintended consequences, but assuming folks here are honest with the info they provide, and they’re not assessing blame on the breeder, sire or dam, or naming names (of course people can look up the pedigree on their own) there could be some merit to this. Just throwing it out there as an idea....

 

[moscowitz]

EDA can poor structure /angle be one reason for torn ACL

 

[EdA]

EDA can poor structure /angle be one reason for torn ACL

Males who are pre puberty when neutered are the canine version of eunuchs, they tend to have long straight rear limbs which are probably more prone to cruciate injury. Anything beyond that is pure speculation unsupported by anything other than anecdotal evidence. Cruciate injuries occurred but were relatively uncommon until thirty years ago. The epidemic that ensued including previously unheard of juvenile tears pointed at something well beyond anatomical.

 

[moscowitz]

EDA thank you appreciate your knowledge on the subject.

 

[DTreeman]

I understand this is a hot topic, and for those of us that are not 'in the know' it is frustrating. I have had 3 well bred trial dogs and my current is the first with the dreaded cruciate issue....so far only one knee has needed to be repaired but was told the other is very likely by the surgeon. It is not my goal to point fingers or place blame, so instead my solution is I will no longer purchase pups out of FT lines. The surgery cost, rehab time, and it is pretty apparent she will never be the same makes this a very easy decision.

All of us always prefer to make informed decisions when given the choice.

 

[EdA]

I understand this is a hot topic, and for those of us that are not 'in the know' it is frustrating. I have had 3 well bred trial dogs and my current is the first with the dreaded cruciate issue....so far only one knee has needed to be repaired but was told the other is very likely by the surgeon. It is not my goal to point fingers or place blame, so instead my solution is I will no longer purchase pups out of FT lines. The surgery cost, rehab time, and it is pretty apparent she will never be the same makes this a very easy decision.

All of us always prefer to make informed decisions when given the choice.

There are no non cruciate injury breeds or lines. The vast majority of dogs with cruciate ligament injuries have long and successful careers. This is probably the orthopedic injury of athletic dogs with the highest percentage post surgical success.

 

[DTreeman]

EdA I have always respected your knowledge and willingness to share it, it is a huge asset to this forum.

In your post earlier you mentioned a huge increase in the number of these injuries in the past 30 years. What can we attribute this to? The surgeon that did my dog told me it is hereditary, and especially prevalent in the FT lines.....too much line breeding, and those in the know choosing to overlook it.

 

[EdA]

EdA I have always respected your knowledge and willingness to share it, it is a huge asset to this forum.

In your post earlier you mentioned a huge increase in the number of these injuries in the past 30 years. What can we attribute this to? The surgeon that did my dog told me it is hereditary, and especially prevalent in the FT lines.....too much line breeding, and those in the know choosing to overlook it.

No question that there is a yet unidentified genetic component. Our dogs have been “line bred” for 70 years but the advent of popular sire syndrome and frozen semen resulted in an abnormally large influence by a few individual males. The concentration of genetic traits, some good some bad, has altered the landscape. Puppies under 6 months of age with CCL injury and young dogs with bilateral tears was unheard of prior to +/- 1990.

 

[Charles C.]

For what it's worth, there is a theory that cruciate weakness or tears are in part related to a manganese deficiency. According to the theory, a dog's manganese requirements are high and neither commercially prepared or raw/homemade diets include enough. The animal parts highest in manganese (wool, feathers, hair, etc.) are mostly left out of dog's current kibble or raw diets. Anecdotally, I supplement with manganese and have not had any cruciate tears in several dogs although a dog I sold ended up tearing one much later. Also, be careful that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are several other issues unrelated to cruciates that you might run into trying to avoid cruciates - epilepsy, bad shoulders, heart defects, eye issues, skin allergies, etc.

 

[Matt McKenzie]

Here’s another variable in the equation. I heard about a pro who has never had a dog on his truck blow a knee. If true, is it possible he’s doing something different? Also I remember a few years ago that Lardy was using a sports medicine vet to help him tailor a warm-up/cool-down program for the dogs. Do any of you know if it resulted in fewer injuries?

 

[drunkenpoacher]

I heard a theory about cruciate injuries being caused the use of mats or place boards on the line. It would make sense, dogs feet slipping as they launch off wet muddy mats then catching on a toenail and putting a great deal of strain on the joint.

 

[O.clarki]

Out of 6 I have had the only one that had this injury was not from field trial lines. I've had a mix of both. I think conditioning and warm up cool down has more of an impact.

 

[J. Marti]

Some breeders in other breeds have started voluntary databases about certain physical issues in their breed. A few volunteers are needed to accept submissions and type them into a database. A lot of people just use Microsoft Excel or some other software to list the names, age of dog when symptoms showed up or was diagnosed, sire and dam. Rules usually are:

1. Only the breeder of the dog or the owner of the dog may submit the information.

2. The sire and dam of the affected dog is listed whenever possible.

There is no submission by people who say something like "I heard so and so pup owned by so and so is affected." None of that is accepted. ONLY the breeder or owner of the dog can add its name to the list.

3. For certain maladies, a letter from a licensed veterinarian confirming diagnosis is needed. (For instance something like "My dog went blind so it must have PRA" is NOT accepted. Blindness can have many causes.)

4. Any interested person can get the list BUT any finger pointing will get you banned from receiving the list. The purpose of such a list is not to point out "bad" stud dogs or litter dams: it is to get a handle on the prevalence of the issue and to try to identify patterns for diseases in which there is not way to DNA test or predict the occurrence of the disease.

Of course, not all breeders make submissions to the list. But several do and owners do as well. It is just a way for people to gather information and make more informed breeding choices. It gives people a chance to evaluate their love of a sire's talent and temperament, etc, and also add in possible health risks.