You might be able to find some AI breedings from Candlewood's Rebel Ridge PDQ, Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow, Lotties Sherman Tank or Lotties St Lucie Merck.

 

there is a yellow litter due mid march that has both and no lean mac.

Sire is UH HRCH BlueSky's Code Three MH
Dam is HRCH Whispering ponds Golly miss molly

Contact Bob Cox

724-544-1654

 

jydog is that thompson dog Cody. If so he's an awesome dog nothing but good news on him.

 

Merck is still alive. You can get info through Roger Perry on this forum. He has lots of experience with Merck offspring, too.

 

I bred my female (Bo's Shadee Ladee Sadee MH to Merck almost 9 years ago. The litter produced FC/AFC Coolwater's Ice Tiger Sh, AFC Coolwater's Ready To Go, By Hook Or By Crook MH (QAA), Shadee Ladee Katee MH, Lucky Dux Cheese And Quackers MH, and Hunter's Road - Hunter has 3 Open points and needs one more pass for his MH title. One out of the litter was sold as a pet and another died when she was about 6 months old. Ice and Ready are CNM clear. Kate and Hooker and Hunter were not tested.

Sadee's grandfathers were NFC NAFC Super Tanker on her sires side and FC/AFC Snake Eyes Double Or Nothing on her dam's side. I doubled up on the Super Tanker lines before the test for CNM was available.

 

Denney,

You might check out www.coolwaterkennels.com. AFC "Ready" is out of Merck. I don't know a lot about this dog, but it looks like he has a solid record and there are pups available. I also like the Abe x Lottie combination,.....as do many! I have an Abe granddaughter that was very easy to train. If you're interested, PM me your phone #, I'd enjoy talking with you about your interest and what you find out. Good luck.

Dick

 

I have a Quick grandson (Maxx is out of Click) -- really like the Abe X Lottie combination -- best of luck in finding a breeding -- you won't be sorry
Just noticed that Mike Beadle has a nice breeding Chopper X Seaside's Hakuna Matata QAA -- she's out of FC AFC Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow -- repeat breeding -- nice pedigree

 

This is a bit of a diversion from the topic at hand, but this message string provides a great illustration of how the field retriever community has apparently not tried to really maintain any true "lines". Abe was a wonderful producer yet his line after just a generation or two seems destined to fade away like most of the other producers that preceeded him including his fathers. Why is no one out there with the resources trying to maintain some of these lines? Seems like there should be some linebred Lottie dogs too despite the known issues.

If you know of any dogs linebred on Abe let's hear about them. Same with Harley. Any linebred Harley dogs where he is at least a grandfather or great-grandfather on top and bottom?

 

Line bred Harley:

Super High Flyer - NFC AFC Abe's Ebony & Ivory x Candlewood's High Hope
Hope = Harley x Nota (Ziparoo x Lottie)
Abe is his grandfather on top, Harley grandfather on bottom and Lottie great grandmother on bottom

CNM Clear, Hip Good Elbow good, Eyes Cerf'd

 

Be careful what you wish for.....

Do your homeowrk.....

Angie

 

Be careful what you wish for.....

Do your homeowrk.....

Angie

Everyone and their mother knows Lottie carried CNM. The testing makes that less of an issue when making breeding decisions. Linebreeding is a valuable tool that very few labrador breeders use, for whatever reason.

 

my new pup has harley in top and bottom. both great grandads

 

Is Harley the great grandad of the pup or of the parents? Is lean mac on both sides too? Just curious.

Be careful what you wish for

Is a 40% incidence of the EIC gene in the field labrador population what everyone wished for??? If so, then mission accomplished and stay the course.

What I wish for is that a few folks that are really into breeding field labradors would try to maintain some real lines of dogs out there. I am not really aware of any of these efforts if there are any. Does anyone know of anyone trying to maintain any really lines? Harley and Abe are a great example. I have no doubt that their lines will be waterered down and lost rjust like great sires of the past. In other dog breeds and in other animals (dairy cattle, horses, etc) this would not happen to the great sires and dams. Their lines would be maintained then there would be classic outcrosses to other lines. This takes time and resources. It just seems a shame that no one has done this in field labradors recently. They used to.

"no Lean Mac' and "no Snake Eyes" regards.

 

yea the pup did you get a pup from Clark also

 

Maintaining a "line" means having enough homes for all the puppies that as you the breeder deem not suitable to carry on that line. Now if we were breeding livestock animal we would have plenty of outlets for the "culls"....but were not. Doubt you wouild sell many pups when word got out that your breeding practices were taken back 70 years and you were keeping a water bucket by the whelping box.

A "line" is not a "line" until it breeds true. One dog in a pedigree does not constute a "line". Just had a wonderful conversation with the breeding manager of Decoverly Setters. The selection process for breeding stock for an actual "line" is so far removed from what most retriever people use to select their future stock, it's shocking.

As a breeder I have more planned breedings and would do if I could do breedings than a sane person should. Have a 3" thick file folder of pedigrees on dogs most people don't know or care about anymore. I also have some frozen semen on some dogs that carry some traits I think are irreplacable. In the current puppy market I find myself with less of an urge to "Refine" what will be the Drakehaven line.

My ideal world would be 4 deposits in hand and a litter of 6 puppies. 4 to cover the costs of the breeding and 2 for myself. Then give me 10 years and 4 generations and maybe you would START to see some dogs that would produce some traits that were similar enough to be condsidered a line.

JK

 

Then give me 10 years and 4 generations and maybe you would START to see some dogs that would produce some traits that were similar enough to be condsidered a line.

JK

It DOES take 8-10 years to reach the goal of a true line breeding program. Most "linebred" dogs are actually bred on a particular line, but are NOT true line bred dogs. Once the goal is reached, it has to be maintained. ONE breeding outside of the "plan" and most is lost. I know of one linbreeding plan that is in the initial stages.

 

Sure,,,, They are extremely talented. I've trained many of this combination. AWESOME markers with good lines. Slow to mature, even the females. Have a tendency to be noisey. Somewhat independent and watch your water work. They have a tendency to be a tad cheaty. Did I say Noisey!!

They all are drop dead gorgeous. With a few pounds they could go in the show ring....Hahaha.

Angie

 

Sure,,,, They are extremely talented. I've trained many of this combination. AWESOME markers with good lines. Slow to mature, even the females. Have a tendency to be noisey. Somewhat independent and watch your water work. They have a tendency to be a tad cheaty. Did I say Noisey!!

They all are drop dead gorgeous. With a few pounds they could go in the show ring....Hahaha.

Angie

Everything I wanted to hear.You could run for President Angie.

 

Denney,
I have a litter now with "Abe" on the topside, this a repeat breeding and we have been VERY pleased with the pups. Check out my puppy ad on the forum of "Repeat breeding, MH xMH", By Storms Ahead Kennel. Hope to hear from you.
Thank you,
Janet

 

Thanks for all the replys and PMs. They have been very helpful.

What do you think of this breeding? Would this be considered a Harley linebreeding?

Cosmo's Concerto Charlie x Ramblin Man bitch

 

What do you think of this breeding? Would this be considered a Harley linebreeding?

Cosmo's Concerto Charlie x Ramblin Man bitch

Harley is certainly on both sides of pedigree -- maybe a bit far back to make much impact so "indirect"/"lite" linebreeding (now there's a new concept or phrases that might get some RTFers going!!!!!)

 

What do you think of this breeding? Would this be considered a Harley linebreeding?

Cosmo's Concerto Charlie x Ramblin Man bitch

I would consider it a very moderate linebreeding on Harley. The pup would be 1/8 Harley from the sire and 1/8 Harley from the dam for a total of 1/4 Harley. This is similar to having Harley as a grandparent on one side.
Take a bitch from this litter and breed her to The Boss and you end up with a pup that is 3/8 Harley and the start of a line.
Then breed back to Cosmo and you are at 7/16 Harley the continuation of a line that could then be outcrossed with a linebred Lean Mac dog or tank/lottie dog if there is/was one.

 

Herny,

If you did that you'd pull every last hair out !!! They would either go out like a match in a Hurricane or BLOW UP like Dynamite. IMO

There are some breeders who have line bred from certain dogs that do not have near the "personality disorders" as the ones that would be created with that compilation of pedigrees.

Delma would be the one that 1st comes to mind. 7 or 8 Natl. derby champs, 4 or 5 Natl winners, lots of FC's a definate "type" and no off the wall disorders such as EIC, CNM etc.

There is a line that is fading by the wayside and it would behoove some people to take a look at those dogs for their marking, trainability, great TEMPERMENT, and type.
If you know what your looking at you can pick out a Willie, Bluebill, or Spook dog a mile away. They have definate "traits"

JK

 

I have an untitled Abe Grandson out of a no name meat dog on the bottom who I wouldn't take 10g$ for great in the house, quiet in the kennel, marks like machine and runs a nice blind every now and then. If he had a handler he might even have a tiltle. I currently hope to breed my little girl to an AbexChena pup as one of my mentors once told me "you gotta love those Abe/Harley pups. Yawn now back to my nap ....

 

Take a look at RFTN pg 37 Feb/March 2008 My retired hunt test guy is the sire, National Derby List ,QAA too and his two littermates are FC and FC/AFC . Also,I , co-owned the FC/AFC, amateur trained! His Sire is Abe and his Dam is Criquet (my bitch) out of Tank.
On the bottom half you have Harley and Tank AND they are yellow factored. First litter looks great. They are reasonable .

I think he has three males left. Everything is CMN cleared so all that is debunked , both sire and dam, as the "Urban Legend" continues.


Send Bob an e-mail and he will send you a pedigree e-mail I am sure.

Criquet's Noir Ikon X Lady Kosie Rosie

 

I bred a Harley grandson to a Bubba granddaughter and really liked what I got there. I bred the same Harley grandson to an Eba granddaughter and so far those pups are doing fantastic.

I bred Auggie to a MD Houston granddaughter and I liked what I got there. Then took one of those pups and bred him to a Bubba granddaughter and really liked what I got there.

WRL

 

My friend Lanse Brown has a Webshire Honest Abe daughter in FC AFC Eva-Ethyl-Proby Weber and still going well in the twilight of her career...according to my search on EE there are a couple of active dogs born in '03 from an Abe breeding...just search using his name and under sire and it shows a list of dogs with him as the sire

 

This breeding was just done last week... Pretty nice.

http://www.gooddoginfo.com/gdc/asp/viewpedigree.asp?DogNo=98862

Angie

 

Abes youngest son (from last straw) lives here in Ontario Canada. He is owned by Dean Roy. dean runs HRC. His dam is GRHRCH Bluenorths Saved by the bell QAA. Theres no Lottie in the ped though

Mike

 

Mike is their not a straw or two left on Abe? I thought there was but maybe I am misinformed.

Aaron

 

The most depressing thing is seeing these dogs start to fall of 5-generation pedigrees at some point in the near future...

Re: Henry's comment... How can you "preserve a line" when after "x" generations, they're so far removed anyway? Even if you line breed, there's still no way to keep them up close forever?

I sure do miss my Lottie/Able granddaughter... She was way too overly watery and has passed that on to some of her kids, although a couple were overly cheaty, as Angie mentioned. Absolutely beautiful dog, miss her a bunch...

 

There is Abe semen available and Mary Tatum has the last of it. Abe did produce noisy, so did Lean Mac. I'd take a chance on either as they were both incredible dogs. The thing I remember most about Abe is how he wouldn't cast! There is also Autumn Runs Vince semen available. I know this because I took him for the collections. He was both sides barkers and because he was trained by someone that knew what they were doing he wasn't noisey. If Abe is what you want go for it! Lorri O

 

There is also Autumn Runs Vince semen available.

Vince was an incredible dog. (He's retired, but I'm sure still incredible).

 

Doesn't the janitor of this place have an Abe grandson?

Tom