[Mike Boufford]

Handsome dog, but gotta fail you for gun safety....it's pointed right at all of us!

Thanks Lukey is a fine looking dog.

As for the photo, that was taken at the Great Lakes HRC test a couple of years ago and the lens the photographer was using could have taken close ups of Mars. We were definitely a ways off from where he was set up. LOL

 

[Spartazoo]

We got our first lab out of a kennel that breeds for "conformation" and he is beautiful. However our second lab came from a breeder that is hell bent on breeding dual purpose dogs. The two dogs look different and act completely different.

What frustrates me is the first breeder has a number of dogs that are great looking dogs... but when I see this person post on forums that the show season is over so there is nothing to do, it drives me crazy. If your dogs are so great, take the damn things out and get a performance title put on them.

I hope it changes as I get into this more, but the two factions are growing farther apart not coming together. The BOB BLF from Westminster only has one JH in its two generation pedigree.

 

[JesseRain]

Let's face it. Trialing, showing in conformation, and doing hunt tests is expensive. Labs are one of the hardest breeds to put a conformation title on. You have to travel a lot and it takes a ton of cash to put a title on. Then to go out and train for hunt tests or field trials...lets start adding up the bucks. And then for those of us that are crazy enough to do obedience, agility, tracking, or rally...oh, and therapy work...well, shoot...there goes the mortgage payment.

So...the bottom line is this. People NEED to stop whining. Get those field dogs into the ring. The truth is that show breeders are getting into the field WAY more than field people are trying to adhere to the standard.

It is a money thing. And it is an experience thing. I have SH titled dogs. But with a ton of help. In order to take my dogs to the MH level, I'd need to spend money on a pro...and frankly, I don't have that kind of cash...and call me old fashioned, I guess I'm still in love with the idea of breeder/owner/handler...training my dogs the way they were bred to be trained...and LOOK. *shrug*

Guess I'm in the minority though.

 

[Sharon Potter]

The problem lies in the actual purpose of any breed of dog. They were developed for a reason, and without that, there's no point to the breed. And any time any event...be it shows or trials...gets to the place where dogs are bred to win an event rather than the event being used to choose the best dog, the breed standard goes by the wayside and a split gets wider. To me, to have any sporting breed just for showing with no field work or even real hunting, is detrimental to the breed as a whole. Look at Cocker Spaniels and Springer Spaniels. Now bred for hair and markings, the vast majority couldn't find a bird in their feed dish, and would never make it through heavy cover without getting tangled by their own coat.

 

[1st retriever]

So...the bottom line is this. People NEED to stop whining. Get those field dogs into the ring. The truth is that show breeders are getting into the field WAY more than field people are trying to adhere to the standard.

Finally someone else that has the same feelings!

 

[Sharon Potter]

Finally someone else that has the same feelings!

If the standard were used in judging by the majority of judges, more field people would likely give it a try.

 

[1st retriever]

If the standard were used in judging by the majority of judges, more field people would likely give it a try.

Like I said before, you can't change it by sitting on your butt. You have to get out there and make it happen. To quote Nancy Pals sig line "Life has no remote, you have to get up and change it." No one is going to make a difference if you don't try. If nobody enters a field lab type they aren't going to see a better looking dog. They are going to keep placing the fat, stocky, labs.

 

[Brian Urban]

Also, am I the only one who thought the Irish setter was stunning?

Those ears were freaky. But, yes the dog was awesome.

Those announcers were awkward. I hunting with english pointers. I never was invited to be part of a search party. Eh, maybe it was me. ;-)

 

[charly_t]

Handsome dog, but gotta fail you for gun safety....it's pointed right at all of us!

Yep, my Dad was a "gun safety" fanatic and that pic jumped out at me big time.

 

[luvalab]

Hi

I thought overall the sporting group was not the best I have seen in the past. My observation is the pointer and the gsp, wiem. all looked in shape.I dont know if there hunting ability is any good, but they looked like the could do the work.The Lab did not look like it could do the work, that is sad.
I know that one of the labs entered had a JH. I think that this person is at least trying to keep hunting ability in there lab lines.


Regards
JT

I know that Lab. She is cute as a button, happy as a clam, sweet as pie, and runs like hell.

Her sire got his JH relatively late(r) in life, and--while I don't know what he looks like on TV--in person he absolutely screams LAB, from the tip of his black nose, across his straight back to the end of his otter tail, and he can run like hell, too.

He's not petite, but when I saw him at the kennel he was training at he was in nice shape. Solid and powerful. Fantastic coat--hard, dense, not overly long, with an undercoat. My first Lab had a coat like that, and he could swim for an hour and not be wet at the skin.

And what a great temperament! Confident and happy and sweet, energetic without being nuts. I fell in love. I made excuses to clean his clean kennel so that I could give him a hearty love-tap on the ribs and rub behind the ears.

I didn't know Salty well enough to even try to guess what more he was capable of in the field if he'd had an earlier start, but he was certainly an athlete, more than handsome, and total Lab. Great dog. I was rooting for Surfer Girl.


I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive if I'm repeating, but in the flat-coats, almost half had a field title of some sort, there was a MH, and there were a number of obedience and other titles.

 

[luvalab]

(the way I worded the above is awkward--Salty is very much alive--I think he's in England, showing there)

 

[Julie R.]

This post of Tom's is so true. I was talking to my vet recently (he owns Hickory, the Scottish Deerhound that won BIS there last year) and he said it was the thrill of a lifetime but unbelievably expensive and he never would've been able to do it if he hadn't gotten a co-owner once his dog started winning big time. I think he said that it cost over $150K (in less than a year) and that may have only been what it cost him, not the co-owner, between paying for the best handler, going to the "right" shows, the advertising campaign of multi-page color ads in all the show magazines, etc. Hickory won a number of BIS awards prior to Westminster and he retired her after that because, as he said, she doesn't have anything left to prove in the ring.

Hickory is incredibly eye-catching even if you know nothing about the breed. I think that's why her win was so popular, because I can't think of any dog person who isn't mesmerized by her. And she's not fat and overhaired; because she does lure coursing and goes on trail rides with them (they all ride) and lives in their house at his farm. Dr. Dove is not only one of the top repro. vets in the Mid Atlantic, he's also very active with hounds and has been a whipper in for 20+ years with the local foxhunt, the Old Dominion Hounds; he became a Joint Master last year. Like his dog, he's just a very likeable type. And he hosts lure coursing training for anyone who wants to come at his farm. He invited me to come if any of my Peakes would chase a plastic trash bag hooked to a mechanical drag to bring them to one (We haven't, but I have one that I might try it with).

Mike,

There are numerous reasons dogs get put up. Judges are just like the rest of us and have their preferences of what they like. So, assuming all other things equal, they will pick what they prefer.

Here are some of the things you can face with judges. There are some judges that are only licensed for one breed. Some are licensed for several breeds. Some are licensed for all the breeds in one group. Some all licensed for multiple groups. Some all licensed for all breeds.
Some judges are breeders too, maybe in your breed/group, or not. Some have field experience, some don't. There are other variables I haven't mentioned.

You then run into the judges confidence/experience of what they are judging. In a breed with large entries, like labs, and judge who may not know the breed that well will look at the large number of entries and assume that the majority must be correct. So, the one dog that is different, and possible the most correct, is over-looked. Or, you have a breeder judge that prefers the type they breed and put up what looks like that.

Then you have the whole issue of professional handlers. A judge, who may not be greatly experienced with a breed, will see a big-gun handler on a certain type of dog and assume that is what the breed should look like. So, they use those types.

Then there is the aspect of dogs being heavily promoted/advertised in trade publications. The judges see that a certain dog has so many BOB, Groups or BIS placements and assume it must be what the breed should be like.

So, it is easy to see how the type of dogs being shown can move towards what is being put up which pushes the "off-type" even further. It is kind of like when a certain field dog produces multiple FC's so they get used as a stud widely. People look for FC's and not breed type and you end up with dogs that win FT's but look like a greyhound, for example.

Once the breeding programs go to only produce winners, regardless of the venue, it is easy for dogs to drift away from the breed standard. The problem is the breed standard was created to describe what the breed is. Once most dogs shift from the original it is difficult to move back towards it. It takes a concerted effort on most the breeders part.

One tool show judges have at their disposal is to excuse dogs that do not have merit. When we were showing I never remember this happening.

Tom

 

[chesaka]

I liked the Chessie that won the breed and have had my eye on his sire as a possible stud for one of my girls. I prefer him over the dog that won the Chessie specialty as I think he is more typee and has enough leg, and back which I think allows for a more athletic, better moving dog. The dog that won the specialty does have the best coat though. It was interesting there were only two Chessie bitches entered at Westminster.

 

[Pals]

I would have preferred the Dobe or the Dalmatian but you are all missing the big question…

What was up with the best in show judges outfit?!
Just sayin…

LOL!!! Stunning.

 

[Eric Fryer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP7h...=IP7hzKoNLR8&feature=related&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1&safe=active

 

[Billie]

Billie You must have watched a different year because LAST nite was the second night , with Best in show and the sporting group.

The lab bitch is one of the prettiest show bitches I have ever seen....I would take a pup out of her in a minute .....and breed it to my Grady son.

Wierd>..? Must have--- too bad then I missed all of this years show...

 

[Happy Gilmore]

I liked the Chessie that won the breed and have had my eye on his sire as a possible stud for one of my girls. I prefer him over the dog that won the Chessie specialty as I think he is more typee and has enough leg, and back which I think allows for a more athletic, better moving dog. The dog that won the specialty does have the best coat though. It was interesting there were only two Chessie bitches entered at Westminster.

I was dissapointed in that as well. I don't think it did the breed service to have so few.

my bitch would have won anyways but, I didn't go....(you know?? LOL)

 

[Susie Royer]

I was dissapointed in that as well. I don't think it did the breed service to have so few.

my bitch would have won anyways but, I didn't go....(you know?? LOL)

There were only 13 dogs entered....4 bitches and 9 dogs. One bitch and one dog were absent so, only eleven showed. Lowest CBR entry I have ever seen at Westminister.

 

[canebrake]

Well said, thank you.

Also, am I the only one who thought the Irish setter was stunning?

A day or two behind since work 12 hour night shifts - With respect to the judge, JMHO I liked the GWP, Wirehaired pointing Griffon, Boykin, Toller and Irish Setter (yes the lab was nice too) . Thought the Dobe was stunning in BIS.

I am member of local kennel club predominantly conformation. The advantage to this is learning from long time breeders, owners of many different breeds. I was encouraged to show my dogs myself (school of hard knocks) and hence all of my dogs (including my field bred labs) were shown in conformation matches as young as possible. Gave them valuable socialization as a puppy.

Guess I'm just a sucker for dog stuff... Love all of it, field, agility, obedience, show too

Martha, the labs and the foo-foo GSPs

 

[Mike Boufford]

The problem lies in the actual purpose of any breed of dog. They were developed for a reason, and without that, there's no point to the breed. And any time any event...be it shows or trials...gets to the place where dogs are bred to win an event rather than the event being used to choose the best dog, the breed standard goes by the wayside and a split gets wider. To me, to have any sporting breed just for showing with no field work or even real hunting, is detrimental to the breed as a whole. Look at Cocker Spaniels and Springer Spaniels. Now bred for hair and markings, the vast majority couldn't find a bird in their feed dish, and would never make it through heavy cover without getting tangled by their own coat.

Well put Sharon.