If I make good use of a game bird, I didn't waste it. Even if my use, doesn't involve eating it.

 

Use wild Mallards where there is no shortage of them, in training and competing with retrievers (A conservation tool)
or buy from a game farm where there can be an environmental impact resulting from the business.
There is no question in my mind about ethics.
In Canada, retriever club game stewards are allowed to possess up to 200 wild ducks for training and competition.

 

But by definition of the law is it?

 

in our state game laws it clearly states to the term " migratory game bird " when referring to wanton waste. So to me that mean wild, so any bird bought for dog training is not subject to this law....

Just my opinion

 

Wanton = a lewd or lascivious act

The essence of the law is focused on the senseless killing just for self indulgence (ie. shooting practice/sport).

Some might argue that the game must be eaten. Some would argue that breasting the bird out leaves waste. Others might say that if you don't harvest the feathers for warmth you are guilty of waste. Or having the bird mounted might be waste.

Personally, I feel that if you collect the bird and use it in ANY way, you have fulfilled the law and your responsibility.

ANY way = any non perverse way

 

The letter of the law usually contains verbiage involving "edible parts". And as such, does a poor job of matching the spirit of the law.

Regardless of whether or not I eat parts of a bird, if I get charged with Wanton Waste for having a game bird mounted by a taxidermist, or for utilizing a game bird in the training of a retriever; I'd fight it in court.

If I let a bird lay where it falls in the field, or toss it's entire carcass in a dumpster on the way home from a hunt, then I'd be guilty of Wanton Waste.

 

Margo, my own opinion is that wild birds shot while hunting should not be used in training or testing.

 

Here is Maine's wanton waste statute:
(Maine) Statute on Wanton Waste:
50 CFR 20.25 Wanton waste of migratory game birds.
No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his actual custody, at the place where taken or between that place and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.
According to 12 M.R.S. § 11224, a person may not waste a wild bird or wild animal that has been wounded or killed by that person while hunting. For purposes of this section, "waste" means to intentionally leave a wounded or killed animal in the field or forest without making a reasonable effort to retrieve and render it for consumption or use.

Most other states have similar wording of their wanton waste laws...the keys for me are
1. A reasonable effort to retrieve a wounded or crippled bird (Someone that is using wild birds for training has done this)
2. Render it for consumption or use (For me, this allows for other uses of the game besides eating....dog training is a "use)

 

Here is Maine's wanton waste statute:
(Maine) Statute on Wanton Waste:
50 CFR 20.25 Wanton waste of migratory game birds.
No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his actual custody, at the place where taken or between that place and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.
According to 12 M.R.S. § 11224, a person may not waste a wild bird or wild animal that has been wounded or killed by that person while hunting. For purposes of this section, "waste" means to intentionally leave a wounded or killed animal in the field or forest without making a reasonable effort to retrieve and render it for consumption or use.

Most other states have similar wording of their wanton waste laws...the keys for me are
1. A reasonable effort to retrieve a wounded or crippled bird (Someone that is using wild birds for training has done this)
2. Render it for consumption or use (For me, this allows for other uses of the game besides eating....dog training is a "use)

Nebraska's definition reads very similar to this.

 

She never said they were bought, just used to train with.

 

I don't think that legally or ethically this meets the intent of regs against "wanton waste." However, you might run into issues of possession limits and possession of birds out of season. (I've had game wardens check the "toe clips" on training birds. If it's a thawed wild bird how do you prove it was not shot out of season?) And for licensed events, AKC regs regarding the number of "fresh killed" birds required to be provided v freezer birds, wild or game farm. (The later being a pet peeve, esp at certain clubs who use a lot of freezer birds, but seem to have trouble keeping the freezers running.)

 

In Oregon the "training birds" permit states it must be toe clipped or identified as a farm raised bird.

"Marked bird for mallards means a domestically-raised mallardwhich was marked prior to 6 weeks of age in at least one of the methods approved by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 50 CFR21.13. These methods are a seamless metal band, removal of the hind toe from the right foot, tattooing of a readily discernible numberor letter or combination thereof on the web of one foot, or pinioning a wing, provided the pinioning method shall be the removal of themetacarpal bones of one wing or a portion of the metacarpal bones which renders the mallard permanently incapable of flight."

"The take of unmarked game birds (except bobwhite or Coturnix quail) while training a hunting dog or raptor is prohibitedoutside of designated hunting seasons identified in the annual Oregon Game Bird Regulations.

If you are possessing an unmarked wild bird you better be a silver tongued devil to prove you didn't kill it out of season.

 

We were training in a wildlife area last spring and using some drake Goldeneyes we had harvested. Not the best eating bird, but they make great training birds, the black and white show up amazingly well. My buddy and I both had hunting licenses and are therefore allowed to possess 24 ducks between us, possession goes beyond open season. Game Warden stopped by and checked us out, he really likes to watch dogs work, just asked were we got the birds, told him they were harvested this past season, and he was fine with that. Plus you could tell they had been frozen, but he did not handle them. Nor did he ask to see a license. Personally, I like duck meat so much that I eat everything I harvest, except for Goldeneyes, and I do not shoot Buffleheads.
I will buy pheasants to shoot live flyers from a pheasant farm and then clean them to eat. But I will not do that with farm raised ducks, since I cook duck meat rare to medium rare, not using farm raised ducks.

 

I have always understood, waste as shooting a game animal,and leaving ANY or ALL edible portion lay on the ground.

Gooser really had to think about this though. At first I was gonna say it was thowin out left over Chinese food!

 

Margo,

In the Montana Migratory Bird regulations regarding wanton waste it states: "No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his/her actual custody. Note: (their emphasis, not mine) State regulations are more restrictive, making it illegal to waste any part of a game bird suitable for food, which includes the breasts of birds the size of a teal duck or smaller and the breasts and thighs of all birds larger than a teal duck."

In my discussions with the Montana wardens and the federal wardens, in Montana, if you shoot it you have to utilize it for food. I hope this helps.

Mike

 

Margo,

In the Montana Migratory Bird regulations regarding wanton waste it states: "No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his/her actual custody. Note: (their emphasis, not mine) State regulations are more restrictive, making it illegal to waste any part of a game bird suitable for food, which includes the breasts of birds the size of a teal duck or smaller and the breasts and thighs of all birds larger than a teal duck."

In my discussions with the Montana wardens and the federal wardens, in Montana, if you shoot it you have to utilize it for food. I hope this helps.

Mike

by that definition if you shot a trophy specimen canvasback or cinnamon teal and had a taxidermy mount of that bird, one could be cited for wanton waste...a little common sense needs to be used in these situations

I have used shot wild ducks for training, after removing the breast, we douse the body cavity with borax and then fill it with plumbers silicone, stitch them back up and have a very nice training bird that floats..

How else can one teach a young dog to retrieve a Canada goose, without actually having one to retrieve..If I can save one of them from my hunts and use it for training, I feel I am using it to the best of intentions for future hunts with my dog

IMO wanton waste is I shoot a few birds and chuck them in a dumpster or leave them for the coyotes to eat

 

Mike that is exactly what I was looking for thanks.

 

Margo, this would not be "wanton waste", but it possibly could turn into wanton waste if the birds are disgarded/dumped after being used for training. The real issue could be bag limit, one person can only legally have "X" amount of birds in their possession. Almost without exception, these birds need to be tagged and remained tagged during use, that alone poses another issue.
Birds bought from bird farms do not fall under wanton waste or bag limit laws, they are considered personal property. Bird farms are required to mark their birds, usually by removing a toe. If you raise your own and do not mark the bird, there is always the chance that they could be mistaken for wild.
Owning a duck club and being a past president of a retriever club, I have found that if you have a good relationship with your areas agents, you have little to worry about.
Always remember there are strict laws about possession and transportion of wild game. If those are not followed, there is always a chance that trouble can occur.

 

All good points. I think this needs to be addressed at the club level here in Montana.

 

Over the limit? And there are 5 more in my office and 3 at the Taxi.

 

I guess it means whatever the game warden says it doe (among other things Bob mentioned). Why invite the hassle and a trip to court to fight it?
Call the game warden and get their opinion (and their name and badge #).

 

Very good advice in my opinion.

 

A lot can be said on inter-net form, however every state has Departments of Fish and Game, and they have Agents and letter-head; thus I'd go into said office and have them give me a ruling and write it on letter-head to keep in club files. Realistically most states laws list it as leaving game in the field with out attempting a retrieve; then they might say something about consumption or use (dog training and testing to develop better conversational tools, is a pretty good use (especially for Spoon-bills ) Still a published letter from the head-office, will keep most all wardens off your back.

 

Hey now, nothing wrong with Spoonies, have eaten several of them. Soak-em good first though-LOL

 

:barf: Around here spoonies tend to get rice-belly. I believe every-duck (always spoonies) I've ever seen with that condition has been wanton-waste; I can barely stomach distinct the smell of spoonie meat without little white critters embedded throughout; Probably an acquired taste still extra protein, I'm sure

 

We always keep the best ducks left over from our tests, freeze them, and there is no need to chance it by using wild killed birds. Our club has no official policy that I'm aware of, it is just understood by all.

 

This kind of discussion or consideration is exactly what will inevitably kill the sport. Do you want a law that prohibits wild game from being used for training? Wanton Waste laws are for one thing. They prevent you from shooting over your limit when you don't feel like looking for a cripple. Trying to interpret a different meaning is fruitless.

 

My wife has informed me that all ducks other then mallard, teal, and woodies will be training birds from now on...... If the CO has a problem with it I will refer them to the higher authority and let them discuss it with my wife.

 

I have a duck creole recipe that makes use of those other ducks, especially spoonies very well.

 

It's hunting in that it is not just shooting warm targets in the sky and throwing them in the trash can on the way out or pound them in the sand.
At least make an attempt to bring them home.
For Pete sake...there are those who don't like to eat waterfowl, but yet like to shoot them for a challenge to their shooting skills and possible their dog's skills.
But, understand that that is a minority in our sport, and it exists.

 

If a clubs land owner is at risk because state law says you harvest the breast and leg from game birds then I think a club policy should be in order. What would kill the support is the loss of clubs because off possible legal issues. Each state is different.

 

Game farm birds are identified by a leg tag and a voucher from the game farm as being farm raise birds…
Wild game is not unless tag by Fish and Game for tracking purposes.

 

Talking about it at the club level seems to be the way to go. The less public (Gov't) attention, the better.

 

Yep I hesitate even bringing it up on an Internet forum. I would think game wardens have better things to do other than enter private land to check training ducks against a law that was clearly written to address over harvesting and killing game just for the shooting. Especially since the whole purpose of the training is to preserve game.