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What to do about a breeder?

5K views 28 replies 22 participants last post by  Reziac  
#1 ·
I just wanted to get some advice from some of the members. I bought a pup from a breeder that came with a 30 month hip and elbow guarantee. I had her hips checked to be certified when she turned 24 months old and they came back as dysplastic.

I contacted the breeder and he told me to send him the OFA report and he would take care of it. So I did but never heard anything from him. I have had to call or email him every time and it's always something different. He has agreed several time's that I have satisfied my end and tell's me that he will refund the money but never does. I have documented everything by email, the original ad's and paperwork. This has been going on since November 2008.

So my question is, how should I handle it? Or is there something that AKC could do?

There are other pups from the litter and the 30 month guarantee runs out in one more month. So should I contact them? Should I make the public aware of this breeder? Let it go? Keep waiting on the refund? What?
 
#2 ·
I would say given the current economic situation he might be having issues coming up with the money - maybe offer him a way to refund you your money in payments?

FOM
 
#4 ·
The dam and sire have passed away so he said he would do full refund.

I did offer for him to pay some now and some later, but he never responded. I checked back with him a few weeks later to see if he received my email with that deal and he was very sarcastic. Then he stated that he was planning on breeding another female that he has and wanted to know if I wanted a pup out of it. I figured that if he has the money to keep breeding dogs then he could honor his contracts. Not to mention that with all the problems that I have had with him, I don't want another pup from him.
Thanks
 
#12 ·
The dam and sire have passed away so he said he would do full refund.

Thanks
Both died? Hmmm....

I agree on considering a second set of xrays. One of our dogs on winter trip to GA had prelims done in GA, and vet said hips were so bad the dog wouldn't even get OFA Fair. We had Dr. Yoho (Stillwater, MN) redo them and the dog is OFA Excellent.
 
#5 ·
I just wanted to get some advice from some of the members. I bought a pup from a breeder that came with a 30 month hip and elbow guarantee. I had her hips checked to be certified when she turned 24 months old and they came back as dysplastic.

I contacted the breeder and he told me to send him the OFA report and he would take care of it. So I did but never heard anything from him. I have had to call or email him every time and it's always something different. He has agreed several time's that I have satisfied my end and tell's me that he will refund the money but never does. I have documented everything by email, the original ad's and paperwork. This has been going on since November 2008.

So my question is, how should I handle it? Or is there something that AKC could do?

There are other pups from the litter and the 30 month guarantee runs out in one more month. So should I contact them? Should I make the public aware of this breeder? Let it go? Keep waiting on the refund? What?
Whatever you do, be carefull whose advice you take !!!!;-)

#16

john
 
G
#9 ·
blech...

I think #1 is that you write a "demand" letter... look it up online, but it's a letter you write where you give him a timeframe to meet his end of the bargain -- i.e. I would like the full refund as you agreed in the amount of $xxxx by March 15, 2009...

This forces his hand, technically, although he may still not respond. Then you can go to small claims and hopefully you have this all in writing? If not, save and print all the email communications and notes on any correspondence...

I have not been involved in this specific situation, but have been involved in something similar.

It can be a real pain. It sounds like you've been fair and patient. I did have a client back when Joie first left for school and I gave him a refund on a pup in payments off his training bill for a second dog. It worked out well for both of us...

-K
 
#10 ·
As a breeder, I had a buyer, which is also a good friend, contact me and tell me his dog came back severely dysplastic. We talked about it and agreed to get a second opinion from a specialist. I told him that if she really did come back with bad hips, I'd refund the money stated in the contract. He absolutely refused to accept any money from me, I assume because we are friends. Well, upon a second x-ray from a well respected specialist, her hips will definitely pass OFA, at least with a Fair rating, possibly good.

So maybe a second set of x-rays should have been done, just to be sure. Otherwise, follow Kristie's advice, it sounds like the best advice I've heard.
 
#11 ·
From a business/legal standpoint . no more phone calls . That hasn't worked so far , a new approach is needed. As Kristie says , a demand letter , sent certified ,return receipt required ,is ok.
But ,as mentioned in other posts, , small claims seems the place you are headed .Go to town hall/court . Most states have literature to guide you thru the process. .And in a small ,rural area , the breeder might just hear about you being there before you begin the process , and make good on the pup.Good luck.
 
#14 ·
If I understand correctly, the xrays have been sent to OFA and came back dysplastic. Unless the contract specifically states that a 2nd set of Xrays are required before the breeder refunds the money, why should he go get another Xray done? He has fulfilled all of his requirements - now it's time for the breeder to fulfill his/her part of the deal. It would be great as the owner to get a 2nd set for his own benefit, and hope that the original set was done by someone with little experience who didn't do the xray correctly. If the first set turned out wrong, wonderful. But to do it and spend more of HIS money hoping the breeder doesn't have to follow his own conctract and do what he said he would do - no way.

As a breeder, I can say 3 months is plenty of time for the breeder to have had time to refund his money. Follow Kristie's advice.
 
#26 ·
I require a second evaluation for borderline or grade 1, because sometimes those dogs will get a Fair rating 6-12 months later -- provided they have no degenerative changes. OFA does compare the two sets of xrays, when available (BTW they're also interested in xrays from geriatric dogs to compare with their 2yr plate). Also, because if positioning isn't good, borderline cases can look considerably worse than they really are.

Since I'm not likely to have a replacement pup instantly available anyway (and I don't do refunds), a few months doesn't make any real difference, and better to know absolutely than to remain in doubt about a borderline case.

Gr2 or worse is another matter; once the word comes down from OFA, those are seldom in any doubt.
 
#15 ·
Could you copy onto RTF here the exact contract wording regarding the refund in the event of bad hips? Does he have the option in the contract to give you a replacement pup? What if he wants the pup back in exchange for the puppy rufund? Lots to consider here. I have a displastic dog 6 yo that shows signs of his bad hips, however I would not give him back for all the pups in the world. The breeder did give us a replacement pup and we had ours nutuored (sp). Does your breeder require that in his contract? Most do. Bud
 
#16 ·
I think even if you go to small claims court, in our state at least, it doesn't work well across state lines. Send the demand letter, and even better if you can get an attorney to send one. Unfortunately most times you are sol unless you have some point of leverage. My guess is the kind that don't/won't answer the phone are used to evading responsibility.

I think when people are looking for puppies they need to not only ask for a copy of the written guarantee, but ask also how the seller is going to satisfy the guarantee if they only have an occasional litter and how long it will take.
 
#17 · (Edited)
A lot of people will probably disagree with me....but since I have had 2 bitches (in a row) come back with cataracts at two yrs (different breeders) I guess I have some experience with guarantees.

Both dogs were guaranteed. The first breeder required me to send the dog back to the breeder to get a replacement pup. The second, was from a breeder I knew through a couple yrs of internet communication and I never saw a written guarantee, but believed the breeder when he said he stood behind his dogs. I didn't get a monetary refund, but do have the option of another pup down the road.

One thing I do disagree with is the whole replacement puppy deal. First of all, what difference does it make if you get a replacement pup or money? (from a breeder that is having one litter or more a yr) The replacement puppy is sold to another person, breeders sends you the money. Or they send you the puppy, and they are still 'out' the cost of the puppy......It is a wash....

As a result of both of these experiences my view of 'guarantee' has changed....I honestly believe that if a breeder is doing 'everything they can' to produce the healthiest pups they can, then they should not 'have' to guarantee their pups. To me 'everything they can' includes testing hips/elbows, YEARLY cerf, genetic testing for PRA, DM (unless clear by parentage from the previous generation), and thyroid test. Not only do I look for parents that have these test results, but I want to see health test results from as many of the dogs in the pup's background as possible. IF a breeder is concientious about producing sound, healthy dogs, why should I come back and request a refund or pup? The breeder has done the very best they could! These are living animals - things go wrong...as I have experienced first hand.

One thing about guarantees that I believe is misleading to puppy buyers - esp 'newbie buyers' - is that they 'expect' their puppy to be perfect because there is a 'guarantee'..... (Again from personal experience)..and that just isn't the case. No puppy or dog will ever be perfect.

We aren't God, regards,

Juli
 
#22 ·
The first breeder required me to send the dog back to the breeder to get a replacement pup.

We aren't God, regards,

Juli
IMO the breeder is tring to avoid replacing or repaying for the dog. I mean come on, what is he/she going to do with a damaged dog besides put it down or give it away as a pet. Breeders know that 90% of buyers are so attached to their dogs by age two they would never be able to give them back.


Cheers,

Kevin
 
#18 ·
First of all....do you have any of your contact with the breeder in writing and dated? If so, this preserves any rights you may have under the 30 month issue. If not, the suggested demand letter is in order.

How dysplastic is the dog? If it is graded "Fair", a second set of films might be worth while. If the dog is graded as "severe", there isn't much hope that a second set will be graded non-dysplastic. They may be better but likely not good enough to be considered "fair".

What were your aspirations for the dog? IOW, if the dog is dysplastic, how are you harmed?

Eric
 
#20 · (Edited)
I have a 5 year old male Master hunter that you could never tell is dysplastic. He is one of the best animals a person could ask for. He will hunt 3 days in a row and has never shown any signs. He was there with my wife through all of her cancer treatments and is my sons best friend. I would have paid fifty times what he cost as a puppy even if I new he was dysplastic knowing what I know now. Sometimes you have to walk away from the bad part of the deal and look for the good. I didn't get my money back either.
________
Iolite Vaporizer Review
 
#21 ·
One thing about guarantees that I believe is misleading to puppy buyers - esp 'newbie buyers' - is that they 'expect' their puppy to be perfect because there is a 'guarantee'..... (Again from personal experience)..and that just isn't the case. No puppy or dog will ever be perfect.
A better word for puppy contracts is "warranty", instead of "guarantee".

Also my "warranty" is for five years based not on test results but on the dog's ability to lead a normal life. So, it doesn't apply to the dog whose hips don't pass OFA, but has no physical disability as a result of the CHD. All inherited items are treated that way in the warranty.

IF I were to expect a guarantee for OFA passing results (or CERF or whatever), then I would expect to pay a whole lot more for the pup, especially from a small-volume breeder. Some breeders actually do this. They charge a higher price for the pup with the "full" coverage of test results basis.

One favorable aspect to it, for the breeder, is that they will get good feedback on how the litter fared with these important genetic issues. That could be useful information in whether certain combos work better than others.
 
#23 ·
Since he has not held up to his end of the contract, along with the demand letter, small calims court, you would think that there would be some way to expose him for the bad (business) breeder that he has turned out to be. (Going by what you are saying)
I get so tired of these crooks & business people that continue to screw over people & think that there is nothing going to happen to them. If he is not going to hold up to his end of the bargain, I say spread the word brother & let evreyone know who he is & what he has done.

If this is the way he does business, he don't need to be in business!!
 
#24 ·
I would take it to small claims if your time is about up on the guarantee. Otherwise you could very well end up SOL!
 
#27 ·
Sorry for the delayed response. I have been at a trial all weekend. I will try to answer all the questions without missing one. Also I have returned pm's.
I am not a newbie puppy buyer, I just simply like to get other opinions before making hasty decisions. I don't have the expectation that every dog is going to be perfect but I chose a litter that was suppose to have a guarantee. If you have the idea that someone should not call you back if there is a problem with a pup then don't offer a guarantee when you offer your pups for sale.

Her hips came back from ofa as moderate. I also had my vet do two sets of x-rays before he sent them to ofa just to be sure. Being that they came back as moderate I just don't see the need to redo them just for the sake of the breeder.

My intentions for the pup was field trials and I had her with a pro.

I don't think there is a question of the contract or anything because he has already stated by phone and in several emails that I have full filled my end of everything. He's just not doing what he said which is refunding the purchase price.

I really appreciate all the help from everyone. There have been some really good points made.
 
#28 ·
Her hips came back from ofa as moderate. I also had my vet do two sets of x-rays before he sent them to ofa just to be sure. Being that they came back as moderate I just don't see the need to redo them just for the sake of the breeder.
Since you have that second film, for your own peace of mind, you could send those to an independent, board-certified radiologist for an opinion. It costs about $40, but the report you get is much more informative than what the OFA gives you. You can include a note about also getting a comment on positioning of the dog to rule that out in evaluating the film.

Since the breeder is not disputing the contract, this would only be for your own peace of mind to see that the opinion of a 3rd radiologist is in agreement.

The OFA is a consensus opinion of 3 radiologists. It could be that one said "mild", one said "moderate" and one said "severe" ... or some other combination thereof. But I have never heard of OFA sending back an xray due to poor positioning, yet I have heard of people who got different readings when submitting subsequent xrays that were positioned properly.

If the dog definitely has DJD, then there's likely no question of the dx of CHD ... it might just be a matter of degree. In the end, it would just be about how to handle the dog's activity level. Most times the dog will let you know.
 
#29 ·
Since you have that second film, for your own peace of mind, you could send those to an independent, board-certified radiologist for an opinion. It costs about $40, but the report you get is much more informative than what the OFA gives you. You can include a note about also getting a comment on positioning of the dog to rule that out in evaluating the film.
Or send it to the BVA, which does a somewhat more detailed report of the various factors that go into a rating. (I wish OFA would adopt this, as it's quite informative.)

But I have never heard of OFA sending back an xray due to poor positioning, yet I have heard of people who got different readings when submitting subsequent xrays that were positioned properly.
I've had one rejected for crap positioning and one for being too dim to read accurately. Well, what actually happens is that they'll evaluate it, but as a prelim only (won't give you a final rating based on that xray). If you include a note asking them to just reject it outright if it's not a good enough xray, they'll honor that (saves you the cost of the evaluation). Or at least such has been my experience, but that was a lot of years ago.

If the dog definitely has DJD, then there's likely no question of the dx of CHD ... it might just be a matter of degree. In the end, it would just be about how to handle the dog's activity level. Most times the dog will let you know.
And most dogs never have any visible difficulties, or not until they're quite aged. There've been a few top-winning FCs and even NFCs with bad hips.

As Gerry says, DJD never gets any better no matter how good the xray is.