[Jacob Hawkes]

A decent Pro will not accept a pup until it is at least 6 months old.

lol You're telling me the great ones won't either?

 

[GONEHUNTIN']

Most pros sit run their higher level dogs while their "apprentices" Force Fetch the puppies unsupervised. Then the pups owners wonder why their promising pups come back home with serious problems and deficiencies.

Their apprentices do the yard work unsupervised, but only after they have been thoroughly schooled by the pro and the pro has worked extensively with them in the yard (the apprentice). It would be absolute suicide for a pro to give an untrained and unqualified promising young dog the train. No reputable pro would ever, no has ever, done that.

A decent Pro will not accept a pup until it is at least 6 months old. It is important that you know who will be doing the FF. And ... remember that many Pros will lie.
Good luck!

That's correct. There's little point in accepting a pup earlier than that. Most want their adult teeth in. A pup much younger than six months just can't take the pressure of formal training. You have to go so slow with them that it's considered a waiste of client money until the dog is mature enough. There used to be people that specialized in only puppy development, then that dog was turned over to a pro when old enough.

Almost any pro will tell you that they don't force the dogs or yard work them unless they only carry 2o dog's and do everything themselves. No reason to lie, it's customary to have the pro working the truck, the yard man working the youngsters and new dog's.

 

[Jay Dufour]

We offer puppy head start at a reduced price,where the puppy is exposed to puppy marks,birds,gunfire,water,here,ect.Every puppy that has attended this ends up better than the ones that go home and gets spoiled rotten,no retrieving,no training.Its a period that they get addicted to retrieving and at the same time learn how to learn.The ones that dont...we dont want until at least five or six months.

 

[ErinsEdge]

This is good-now the two anonymous experts disagreeing.
Popcorn icon please.

 

[cakaiser]

We offer puppy head start at a reduced price,where the puppy is exposed to puppy marks,birds,gunfire,water,here,ect.Every puppy that has attended this ends up better than the ones that go home and gets spoiled rotten,no retrieving,no training.Its a period that they get addicted to retrieving and at the same time learn how to learn.The ones that dont...we dont want until at least five or six months.

Sure, lots of pros do some sort of puppy raising, if the owner wishes it.

Think it was Lardy who said the worst thing an owner can do with a puppy is nothing.

As for FT people who wash out pups at 8 weeks, don't know too many of them, I certainly never would, many pups don't even retrieve at that age.

 

[bodang]

I hope this response is not "ill recieved." But, when you use the term "professional trainor", it should be taken literally. If you are a "pro", that means you train for a living, you are accustomed to the problems of training and have adapted. Most of the training items listed in the question, are just that- "training items." Meaning any dog can be taught these drills/steps. In my opinion, I do not think 4 months is an unreasonable expectation to accomplish these tasks---if being performed by a professional (who's getting paid to do it). Yeah, I agree, if being performed by an amateur, it may take variable amounts of time because of time issues and experience. But, were not talking about an amateur, we're talking about a "pro." Learing how to do a short retired is somewhat limited by the quality of dog, but not force fetch. I'm not speaking without experience. I have trained my own bird dogs and labs on these steps. (I have won both open and many amateurs). Training a setter moves just as fast as a lab. My setters will never do a quad with a long retired, but we're not talking about that scenario. We're talking about "basics".

So, in summary, 4 months is plenty for a "pro", but may be difficult for an amateur.

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

Its not just the trainer, who determines the amount of time that learning a specific set of skills, the dog plays into it as well. Depending on the breed and the breeding, not all dogs learn as fast as we would like, even when contrasted to littermates. Its like teaching kids, some can grasp reading well in 1st grade, others take a little longer. Len Ferucci an amateur owner/trainer/handler had a National Derby Champion, Chena River Tug, I believe who had her FC/AFC prior to aging out of derby. If she were the norm, then any gifted trainer should be able to meet that bar. There is a difference in the breeds as well. While there is a high percentage of labs that are pro trained and handled to their letters, the vast majority of Chessies are amateur handled and mostly amateur trained. Though Decks, Tiger, Blaze and Rudy all spent time on various pro trucks, it was amateurs who garnered most of the AA placements for these talented dogs.


I have seen the results of the programs of some pros who pushed dogs in the hunt test venue. I recall one pro specifically who ran lots of derby age dogs in master tests. He had a truck full of these youngsters with mouth problems, steadyness problems, and line manners problems all linked in my opinion to pushing young dogs too hard before letting them mature.

If you have done your homework in selecting a pro, then let the pro train the dogs at a pace that works for trainer and dog, not one that fits your timetable of where the dog should be at a given age. Cookie cutter programs that take an untrained dog in at one end and push them out at the other under time constraints will ruin some good dogs. Training retrievers is not a one size fits all situation.

 

[Rick_C]

Very good post Bob.

 

[YardleyLabs]

Schedules for the future always look a lot longer than the same schedule once it is done. I placed my dog with a field trial trainer last September when she was seven months old. At that point, when all of her training had come from me, her obedience was good and she had passed two legs of her JH. She was easily retrieving marks at 100-200 yards on land or water. She was also beginning to enjoy playing with the birds a little too much on the way back in addition to becoming a little vocal with barks on release.

She began force fetch, which took much longer than I had expected since it included force drop. Swim-by couldn't be started until the following spring because of weather but by then she was running pattern blinds on the land and very complex marks. After four months in training she was through all pile work but was not through swim-by -- she didn't actually finish that until after six months in training when the weather was warm.

After about five months in pro training, everything began to come together. She entered her first derby. She didn't do very well but her performance was clearly an artifact of where she was in training. By seven months in training she had begun to be a serious derby contender and she gets better every week. Had I stopped her training at four months it probably would have been a waste of money. Working at her pace, her attitude is wonderful and her level of achievement amazes me continuously.

My trainer requires a minimum commitment of six months to be sure the dog can progress at an appropriate pace. Based on the results that I have observed with my dogs and other dogs in his care, I agree completely.

 

[Patrick Johndrow]

Depends on the dog and depends on the pro

 

[tomhunter]

An 8 month old just won a derby in Montana, hmmm? I'd also like to see my dog.