[fishduck]

The free lunch!!!! After instructing bird technicians, lining up dogs, shooting flyers and rebirding the gun station, someone always brings me lunch in a brown paper sack! Where else can I go and see my friends, watch good dogs work, run my own dogs and still get a free lunch. It is the best game around!

 

[fishduck]

This may be something that hunters understand easily but may evade many. I run dogs for the great moments when the stars align and everything goes right. When hunting we spend countless hours in the woods waiting for the day when the ducks fall into the decoys, the turkeys come running and the bucks are chasing does everywhere. The shining moment in the dog world may be a water blind or a nice set of marks or a perfectly run test weekend. In those moments the world is right and all the unpleasantness fades away.

Most of us started this journey at the lower level of a hunt test. We were dragged to the line by an unruly beast never before encountered. The adrenaline was overpowering the urge to spew chunks. As the bird went into the air the dog almost pulled my arm out of socket. My dog spontaneously combusted and we failed miserably. The next day everything went right and the ribbon was a sweet prize. The words "Honor to who honor is due" struck a chord and I was on top of the world.

The moments when the world shines golden are fleeting and unpredictable. The friends you make are much more predictable. It has been my pleasure to hunt from South Dakota to Louisiana with friends I made chasing $4.50 ribbons. The ribbons are now an afterthought but I cherish the moments in the sun and my new found friends.

 

[fishduck]

Gooser has given a good synopsis of the HRC rules. It pays to know the rules of the game you are playing so I copied and pasted the rules for Senior and Master. As stated below handling is a "last recourse" and "undesirable in marking tests". I personally would find it very difficult to pass a dog that handles in every marking series of an AKC test.

"Senior and Master Tests, marking and memory of birds are of primary importance. While dogs may be handled in all three levels of testing, this is undesirable in marking tests and should be utilized only as a last recourse to get a bird out of the field. A dog that goes to the area of the fall, establishes a hunt and finds the bird unaided must be scored appreciably higher than a dog that has to be handled to the bird."

 

[fishduck]

Someone previously said that a dog that handles on a mark in AKC is supposed to be given a score of zero.
Is this true?
I don't run AKC, but the above statement would seem to nullify that belief. Maybe the dog doesn't score 8 - maybe he has one clean handle, picks up the bird. Does he score less than the dog that hunted the AOF, left the AOF, then came back to the AOF to finally dig out that bird? ...... Example - Went to the AOF hunted there for 30 seconds, did not locate the bird, switched, was cast back to the AOF and picked up the bird in 2 whistles. What's that mark worth in 'points'?

This is my opinion and I do not judge Master. My opinion is a dog can handle and still demonstrate marking. In your example the dog would get a poor score in marking, not necessarily a zero. 30 seconds may or may not be a long hunt for a judge. So you could get a poor score in perseverance.

 

[fishduck]

I look at AKC hunt test Perseverance two ways; 1) a dog who perseveres on a retrieve by punching cover or other hard going terrain, rather than shying off it. 2) A dog who sticks with the mark, keeps hunting and doesn't give up even when he doesn't find the mark right away. This last case works inversely of marking score, the longer and harder the hunt, higher score on perseverance, lower score on marking.

I have exactly the same understanding of perseverance. But in this example the dog gave up and left the area.

 

[fishduck]

Interesting that you say my reference was to HRC ONLY... I did not think that at all..

heres why...

AKC rule book..

A dog that disturbs cover unnecessarily, clearly well out of the area of a fall, either by not going directly to the area, or by leaving it, even though it eventually finds the bird without being handled, must be scored low in Perseverance or receive no credit in Marking on that particular bird. No credit in Marking shall be given if the dog fails to go to the area, establish a hunt and find the bird; a low score in Perseverance shall be given if the dog goes to the area, establishes a hunt then leaves to hunt elsewhere. If it becomes necessary in either situation to handle a dog, handling must be done crisply and cleanly with full control being demonstrated by handling the dog to the bird.





So,dog goes to AOF ,and establishes a hunt there, but,for some reason, has trouble locating the bird... what ever reason.... the handler decides the dog is disturbing to much cover,or maybe on the verve of leaving the AOF,,decides to handle.. the HANDLE is quick, clean,obedient in nature... dog gets the bird... Now,,, Granted the dog will not receive a "10 or 8 or prolly not a seven,,, BUT,, I would think it would not be below a 5,,that will keep him playing... correct???

If the dog displays this trait throughout the test on other marking set ups,, I would Imagine that its AVERAGE overall on the scores would not allow the dog to pass..nnBUT,, the dog could get %'s in Marking,, and still MAYBE get a qualifying score ... Correct?

Its all subjective on the judges part..

There ARE definitely Judges that will witness a dog go directly TO the AOF,, establish a hunt there,,BUT ,, if the dog has trouble locating the bird,,and even IF the handler handles quickly and cleanly,, they will give a score of below 5.... Its subjective..

IN MY OPINION>>>>>>> If a dog goes directly TO an AOF,, establishes a hunt there... the DOG MARKED that fall.. Now,, by RULE,, the dog cannot disturb the hunt, or to much cover.. IF the handler respects the disturb coverclause,,and performes a quick, clean handel, and the dog gets the bird,,NO HARM NO FOWL,,, "A quick handle is preferred over a big hunt"..

I know it seems as though we have gotten off topic.. but FOR ME,,, this stuff,,the subjectivity of it all,, and some of the sillytests I have seen,, and wittnessed HOW THEY ARE JUDGED,,is why I don't care to run tests any longer.. I will just train..

Thank you for the AKC rulebook quote! The language you were using is word for word the briefing I give before a HRC test. It came either from the printed judge briefing or the seminar.

 

[fishduck]

You guys must be better shots than my crew. When I hunt someone on the other end of the blind says "I knocked one down over there". My dog is then expected to go "over there" in usually the thickest, nastiest cover on the property. That dog has to hunt on its own because #1: I can't see the dog and #2: I have no idea where the bird is anyway. The dog that gets to the area but doesn't have a good enough nose to find the bird is of limited use.

I think a dog with a good nose that can dig a cripple out of cover is very useful. A dog that has to be handled multiple times after making the area of fall may not be so useful. Real world hunting.