[jhnnythndr]

On a mark I just send the dog. (providing the dog marked it) ..otherwise it's not a mark.
On a blind I send the dog and it will handle irrespective of what's on route.
A mark , then another mark in the same line (route) . I want the dog to get the mark and closest then send for the longer one.
A mark of a cripple on the same line as a dead bird whether it's first down or second down or nearer or closer matters not a jot . The dog should be capable of being handled on that bird .
We call this Retriever handling in the presence of game .
Rules set out by clubs or organisations or bodies throughout the world can set out a scenario for any contest they like .
But that's what should happen and does happen with trained retrievers in the shooting field .
Perhaps some should Test for that.

Y'all got that sort of testing pretty much covered on your island haven't you?, which is pretty outstanding for us over here as it allows us our flights of fancy. Good show old chap.


As for hunt test- I don't run them, but I tried. Warfare and marriage are the only truly angst ridden activities that I participate in.

 

[polmaise]

Y'all got that sort of testing pretty much covered on your island haven't you?, which is pretty outstanding for us over here as it allows us our flights of fancy. Good show old chap.


As for hunt test- I don't run them, but I tried. Warfare and marriage are the only truly angst ridden activities that I participate in.

well like everything in life and marriage , don't fight it . It ain't a war , just different ...............rules .;-)

 

[1tulip]

I don't like to do this... Hang my dirty laundry..

Master land test.

Walk up triple.

Come out of holding blind toward walk up. Walk up goes,, then next bird down is a bigger swing, past the center flyer station, then the flyer as the go bird..

I apologize for the quality of the video.. rough weather conditions. stiff wind right to left..

You tell me about the AOF on that second bird down.. I wasn't happy,, but didn't handle..

helps if you view the vid full screen size... might have to watch it a couple a times so you can see where she picked up the bird,, then watch again to where she started her hunt..


They shot the flyer again on the ground, just as I was going to send..

Here goes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjlRiODb_rE

Right. She over-shot, worked her way back. And it seemed to me she diagnosed her position relative to the bird after a very brief amount of quartering. But (and tell me how I'm wrong) what was the hazard she might have run into when driving past the AOF? If there was something that would have taken her out of sight, or driven her into an old fall (she's probably too savvy to do that, though)... would you have stopped her before she ran up the hill?

 

[fishduck]

Gooser has given a good synopsis of the HRC rules. It pays to know the rules of the game you are playing so I copied and pasted the rules for Senior and Master. As stated below handling is a "last recourse" and "undesirable in marking tests". I personally would find it very difficult to pass a dog that handles in every marking series of an AKC test.

"Senior and Master Tests, marking and memory of birds are of primary importance. While dogs may be handled in all three levels of testing, this is undesirable in marking tests and should be utilized only as a last recourse to get a bird out of the field. A dog that goes to the area of the fall, establishes a hunt and finds the bird unaided must be scored appreciably higher than a dog that has to be handled to the bird."

 

[Tobias]

"Senior and Master Tests, marking and memory of birds are of primary importance. While dogs may be handled in all three levels of testing, this is undesirable in marking tests and should be utilized only as a last recourse to get a bird out of the field. A dog that goes to the area of the fall, establishes a hunt and finds the bird unaided must be scored appreciably higher than a dog that has to be handled to the bird."

Someone previously said that a dog that handles on a mark in AKC is supposed to be given a score of zero.
Is this true?
I don't run AKC, but the above statement would seem to nullify that belief. Maybe the dog doesn't score 8 - maybe he has one clean handle, picks up the bird. Does he score less than the dog that hunted the AOF, left the AOF, then came back to the AOF to finally dig out that bird? ...... Example - Went to the AOF hunted there for 30 seconds, did not locate the bird, switched, was cast back to the AOF and picked up the bird in 2 whistles. What's that mark worth in 'points'?

 

[22899]

By the way... If you handle TO an AOF after a dog hunted elsewhere first,,, That's a ZERO score ON THAT 1 BIRD in my mind..

That dog did NOT mark that bird..

Mine does it a LOT!!!

Here is what I said... I did NOT say if you handle on a mark.. I said,, if you handle TO the AOF once your dog hunted else where,, its a zero IN MY MIND,,, Dog did NOT mark the fall area,.. he showed you that by where he established his first hunt..

 

[John Robinson]

Here is what I said... I did NOT say if you handle on a mark.. I said,, if you handle TO the AOF once your dog hunted else where,, its a zero IN MY MIND,,, Dog did NOT mark the fall area,.. he showed you that by where he established his first hunt..

Not to beat this to death, but we use the term "indicating a mark", that would be a dog as Gooser points out, who proceeds directly to the AOF. I have seen numerous dogs leave the line with no clue where the bird is, way off line, then get handled to the bird. The first example is a handle on a partially marked bird, the second is a handle with no indication of a mark. Others have said it, not all handles are equal. I could see a judge giving a zero on the second example.

 

[fishduck]

Someone previously said that a dog that handles on a mark in AKC is supposed to be given a score of zero.
Is this true?
I don't run AKC, but the above statement would seem to nullify that belief. Maybe the dog doesn't score 8 - maybe he has one clean handle, picks up the bird. Does he score less than the dog that hunted the AOF, left the AOF, then came back to the AOF to finally dig out that bird? ...... Example - Went to the AOF hunted there for 30 seconds, did not locate the bird, switched, was cast back to the AOF and picked up the bird in 2 whistles. What's that mark worth in 'points'?

This is my opinion and I do not judge Master. My opinion is a dog can handle and still demonstrate marking. In your example the dog would get a poor score in marking, not necessarily a zero. 30 seconds may or may not be a long hunt for a judge. So you could get a poor score in perseverance.

 

[John Robinson]

This is my opinion and I do not judge Master. My opinion is a dog can handle and still demonstrate marking. In your example the dog would get a poor score in marking, not necessarily a zero. 30 seconds may or may not be a long hunt for a judge. So you could get a poor score in perseverance.

I look at AKC hunt test Perseverance two ways; 1) a dog who perseveres on a retrieve by punching cover or other hard going terrain, rather than shying off it. 2) A dog who sticks with the mark, keeps hunting and doesn't give up even when he doesn't find the mark right away. This last case works inversely of marking score, the longer and harder the hunt, higher score on perseverance, lower score on marking.

 

[22899]

Gooser has given a good synopsis of the HRC rules. It pays to know the rules of the game you are playing so I copied and pasted the rules for Senior and Master. As stated below handling is a "last recourse" and "undesirable in marking tests". I personally would find it very difficult to pass a dog that handles in every marking series of an AKC test.

"Senior and Master Tests, marking and memory of birds are of primary importance. While dogs may be handled in all three levels of testing, this is undesirable in marking tests and should be utilized only as a last recourse to get a bird out of the field. A dog that goes to the area of the fall, establishes a hunt and finds the bird unaided must be scored appreciably higher than a dog that has to be handled to the bird."

Interesting that you say my reference was to HRC ONLY... I did not think that at all..

heres why...

AKC rule book..

A dog that disturbs cover unnecessarily, clearly well out of the area of a fall, either by not going directly to the area, or by leaving it, even though it eventually finds the bird without being handled, must be scored low in Perseverance or receive no credit in Marking on that particular bird. No credit in Marking shall be given if the dog fails to go to the area, establish a hunt and find the bird; a low score in Perseverance shall be given if the dog goes to the area, establishes a hunt then leaves to hunt elsewhere. If it becomes necessary in either situation to handle a dog, handling must be done crisply and cleanly with full control being demonstrated by handling the dog to the bird.





So,dog goes to AOF ,and establishes a hunt there, but,for some reason, has trouble locating the bird... what ever reason.... the handler decides the dog is disturbing to much cover,or maybe on the verve of leaving the AOF,,decides to handle.. the HANDLE is quick, clean,obedient in nature... dog gets the bird... Now,,, Granted the dog will not receive a "10 or 8 or prolly not a seven,,, BUT,, I would think it would not be below a 5,,that will keep him playing... correct???

If the dog displays this trait throughout the test on other marking set ups,, I would Imagine that its AVERAGE overall on the scores would not allow the dog to pass..BUT,, the dog could get 5's in Marking,, and still MAYBE get a qualifying score ... Correct?

Its all subjective on the judges part..

There ARE definitely Judges that will witness a dog go directly TO the AOF,, establish a hunt there,,BUT ,, if the dog has trouble locating the bird,,and even IF the handler handles quickly and cleanly,, they will give a score of below 5.... Its subjective..

IN MY OPINION>>>>>>> If a dog goes directly TO an AOF,, establishes a hunt there... the DOG MARKED that fall.. Now,, by RULE,, the dog cannot disturb the hunt, or to much cover.. IF the handler respects the disturb coverclause,,and performes a quick, clean handel, and the dog gets the bird,,NO HARM NO FOWL,,, "A quick handle is preferred over a big hunt"..

I know it seems as though we have gotten off topic.. but FOR ME,,, this stuff,,the subjectivity of it all,, and some of the sillytests I have seen,, and wittnessed HOW THEY ARE JUDGED,,is why I don't care to run tests any longer.. I will just train..

[/COLOR]

 

[fishduck]

I look at AKC hunt test Perseverance two ways; 1) a dog who perseveres on a retrieve by punching cover or other hard going terrain, rather than shying off it. 2) A dog who sticks with the mark, keeps hunting and doesn't give up even when he doesn't find the mark right away. This last case works inversely of marking score, the longer and harder the hunt, higher score on perseverance, lower score on marking.

I have exactly the same understanding of perseverance. But in this example the dog gave up and left the area.

 

[22899]

I look at AKC hunt test Perseverance two ways; 1) a dog who perseveres on a retrieve by punching cover or other hard going terrain, rather than shying off it. 2) A dog who sticks with the mark, keeps hunting and doesn't give up even when he doesn't find the mark right away. This last case works inversely of marking score, the longer and harder the hunt, higher score on perseverance, lower score on marking.

Excellent!

In post 63.. there is the Video I posted...

on that second bird down,, she did not mark the Fall area at all... But,, she perservered got her bearings,, and found the bird....

This was the first series.... I wasn't wanting to burn a handle right out of the gate... It was close,,, but I didn't handle... they carried me to water...

her MARKING score IN MY OPINION was a zero!!! luckly the judges saw it differently.. I assume it was prolly pretty low though.. They did make a comment she had a "Smart" hunt...

Sometimes,, you have to just let the dogs mark,,and the Judges judge,,and stay out of the way of both parties as a handler... Especially true for me..

 

[fishduck]

Interesting that you say my reference was to HRC ONLY... I did not think that at all..

heres why...

AKC rule book..

A dog that disturbs cover unnecessarily, clearly well out of the area of a fall, either by not going directly to the area, or by leaving it, even though it eventually finds the bird without being handled, must be scored low in Perseverance or receive no credit in Marking on that particular bird. No credit in Marking shall be given if the dog fails to go to the area, establish a hunt and find the bird; a low score in Perseverance shall be given if the dog goes to the area, establishes a hunt then leaves to hunt elsewhere. If it becomes necessary in either situation to handle a dog, handling must be done crisply and cleanly with full control being demonstrated by handling the dog to the bird.





So,dog goes to AOF ,and establishes a hunt there, but,for some reason, has trouble locating the bird... what ever reason.... the handler decides the dog is disturbing to much cover,or maybe on the verve of leaving the AOF,,decides to handle.. the HANDLE is quick, clean,obedient in nature... dog gets the bird... Now,,, Granted the dog will not receive a "10 or 8 or prolly not a seven,,, BUT,, I would think it would not be below a 5,,that will keep him playing... correct???

If the dog displays this trait throughout the test on other marking set ups,, I would Imagine that its AVERAGE overall on the scores would not allow the dog to pass..nnBUT,, the dog could get %'s in Marking,, and still MAYBE get a qualifying score ... Correct?

Its all subjective on the judges part..

There ARE definitely Judges that will witness a dog go directly TO the AOF,, establish a hunt there,,BUT ,, if the dog has trouble locating the bird,,and even IF the handler handles quickly and cleanly,, they will give a score of below 5.... Its subjective..

IN MY OPINION>>>>>>> If a dog goes directly TO an AOF,, establishes a hunt there... the DOG MARKED that fall.. Now,, by RULE,, the dog cannot disturb the hunt, or to much cover.. IF the handler respects the disturb coverclause,,and performes a quick, clean handel, and the dog gets the bird,,NO HARM NO FOWL,,, "A quick handle is preferred over a big hunt"..

I know it seems as though we have gotten off topic.. but FOR ME,,, this stuff,,the subjectivity of it all,, and some of the sillytests I have seen,, and wittnessed HOW THEY ARE JUDGED,,is why I don't care to run tests any longer.. I will just train..

Thank you for the AKC rulebook quote! The language you were using is word for word the briefing I give before a HRC test. It came either from the printed judge briefing or the seminar.

 

[Old School Labs]

Mike,
I watched your You Tube videos, and have to say first, I have not run a HT for quite some time. Second there would have been no question for carrying the dog, on the last bird Flinch picked up. She was smart and knew she over ran the mark and came back very quickly, intelligent hunt in my mind. Going to give you a little crap though on the last video, setting up for the two blinds. Lot of fussing before sending and you know whom would give you hell. Sorry I just could not pass up the chance to rib you a little, I know I would get the same back. wink wink

FLINCH LOOKED GREAT

 

[22899]

Mike,
I watched your You Tube videos, and have to say first, I have not run a HT for quite some time. Second there would have been no question for carrying the dog, on the last bird Flinch picked up. She was smart and knew she over ran the mark and came back very quickly, intelligent hunt in my mind. Going to give you a little crap though on the last video, setting up for the two blinds. Lot of fussing before sending and you know whom would give you hell. Sorry I just could not pass up the chance to rib you a little, I know I would get the same back. wink wink

FLINCH LOOKED GREAT

Thanks Mark.. I agree with fiddling.. And a little bird was sittin on my shoulder screamin in my ear!

I ran Darn near last in that series.About half way thru the field.. the judge addressed the Gallery,,and cautioned, that these are Master level dogs,,and they (Judges) expect the dog to show Master level work,, that includes the initial line.. and challenging the blind.. The Judge,,as usual,, got in my head..

I'll just stick to bendin nails...

The double blind..... The second one's line was VERY close to the AOF of the Walk up.. Sure enough,, I got a bad initial line,,,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1ssjjyRCKA

 

[lorneparker1]

I run them because they are fun for the dog and it gives us something to do the other 9 months when we cant waterfowl

 

[DMA]

My reasons are always changing. I've been blessed with incredibly talented dogs from the get go 16 years ago. I first started HTs because at the time it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. It really built a relationship etween me and my dog. As we started to advance to Master level I found that it was as much of an experience for me improving as a handler as it was watching the dog advance (he was already much more talented than I). I was really a poor handler and found that the challenge exciting to become as good as my dog. Come hunting season (his third) it was incredible to hunt over a trained dog that year we never lost a bird. From there it just evolved I'm on my fourth great dog and am still trying to become as good at handling as my dogs are retrieving. As far as tests and trials I run them to see where we are and what we need to work on. And for me a great chance to socialize with friends old and new. Every now and then I run a test or trial that has a great set up often not. I respect the judges evaluation but I am more concerned with my own evaluation of the dogs work. About the time I say that a judge had a stupid set up that is unrealistic, I have a hunting event that reflects that test and I stand corrected.

 

[Mark Couch]

Gooser I am not so sure about the AOF but I found the box joint hinge pretty interesting.

 

[NBHunter]

I disagree:

1) Junior dogs are not required to be steady and certainly not required to honor. Those are both requirements for the dogs I hunt with. If you are hunting out of a pit blind, the dog that breaks is muzzle high while the shooting may still be going on...recipe for disaster.

2) Junior dogs don't handle. I don't know what my ratio is of blind retrieves or birds that require a handle (maybe it was a mark but the bird dove and came up somewhere else) but it is a whole lot more than 1 out of 20 retrieves.

If you had said a HR or SH then I would agree with you. A really solid SH dog will get the job done the vast majority of the time with the caveat that dogs need time to adapt to new scenarios (hunting rivers, hunting out of boats, hunting pit blinds, certainly hunting layout blinds).

You are correct, a JH doesn't need to be steady and they don't have to be able to handle. The dog I primarily hunt with is in fact SH's so I guess I was just saying that this is what my dog has to do.

I can tell you that where I hunt it's just open fields, and rarely do I have to handle my dog. Last year I killed over 100 birds and I don't think I had to handle 3 times. I can remember 2, but there was probably another one or maybe 2 in there, but not more. And I think that's about normal for each year.

 

[DarrinGreene]

I look at AKC hunt test Perseverance two ways; 1) a dog who perseveres on a retrieve by punching cover or other hard going terrain, rather than shying off it. 2) A dog who sticks with the mark, keeps hunting and doesn't give up even when he doesn't find the mark right away. This last case works inversely of marking score, the longer and harder the hunt, higher score on perseverance, lower score on marking.

Actually the way it is defined in the seminars the dogs marking ability has to do with where he initiates his hunt. Coming up with the bird instantaneously isn't part of marking, it's knowing where to start - both line and distance. Jerry talks over and over about depth perception being an important skill. This type of interpretation is common. A dog that sets up 10 feet upwind on a 75 yard mark should get a good marking score but if they end up hunting a bit their score is dropping when they did a good job. If they hunt into the wind (naturally) and you handle them back you're now up against the arbitrary 2 handle rule... The dog pereservered against the factors to get within 10 feet, knew the distance and hunted systematically, all desirable, now handle to get the bird fast and move on (also preferable according to the rules) and suddenly judges are giving him a 3 in marking when he had an 8. If you go to the seminar then talk to a lot of judges your head will spin. Not all of course but it is very very common for people to have their own made up interpretation of the rules and how they are to be applied.