[Cowtown]

Hey guys, I think I am down to deciding between two litters, both of which are on the ground and will be ready in late January and early February.

Both are through TopBrass. Both have a field dog line on the dam side and a multipurpose sire.

I am not going to show these dogs. I want to hunt dove and quail with the dog and get into hunt tests. I may do some obedience. I've never tried the game but have been looking at a few of the local retriever and hrc clubs and will hook up with some of those folks and clubs when I get my pup. I'm not going to be hardcore, probably won't get into FT's and above all want a buddy and hunting companion. This will be my first dog since I was a kid so I wanted one that has medium drive, has a great temperment, loves to retrieve, is intelligent and a great companion.

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=353046 (Jagger is a Yogi pup and Milla is a FC/AFC Glenhaven HTRS MN Baronet MH FDHF daughter and both of Milla's sides go back to Holway Barty)

http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/soxphlyerped.htm (Sox has Push, Cotton and Eli. Phlyer is an OS with some great offspring)

What are your thoughts?

Yes these are Goldens, which I have my heart set on getting. So I'm not looking for the "get a lab" type of advice. LOL

Merry Christmas to all!

 

[Redgolden]

Well, telling you what choice to make wouldn't be wise from myself as I don't know you. I'll give you an idea, according to the information about your experience and your intentions you have written what is to expect from those 2 breedings.

Jagger x Mila :

On the Sire side, there is a strong show influence behind him and little on the field work. Almost all dogs have obedience titles which allows to think that they are steady and focus dogs but may be on the low side of the drive wanted in upland hunting.

On the Dam side, it's a different story. Lots of field dogs... !

That breeding doesn't show any PRA/prcd problems or issues

What would be to expect from that litter ? I'd feel that the range of energy will be large. You'll get high-medium and low energy there. As for a first gundog, you may wish to have a high energy that has some good self confidence, curious, and wishes to interact a lot with humans with some birdiness (that would help). If you go for that litter (which has an interesting genetical background as the COI is almost at 0%), ask the breeder if he or she can spot you that pup's profile. If the breeder can't tell you about that (which I doubt), go for the other one.

The second breeding has almost the same profile, having show-obedience influence on the Sire side and field profiles on the female side. I would believe you'd find almost the same range of pup's profiles. In this breeding daugh there is a PRA carrier (the Dam). Not as if it's a problem as a carrier will never be infected (develop the disease) but this means that a part of that litter can be carriers too. If you don't plan to breed that dog in the future, it doesn't matter but if you do, make sure to have a clear pup from the start.

So, which litter ? I wouldn't suggest a perticular litter but the contact with the breeder. What I mean is with which one do you feel more comfortable with ? Which one do you feel that can give you a hand when you'll have questions about your pup ? What is the breeders opinion about what you want to do with the eventual dog vs their actual breeding ? In a situation where two litters are equivalent, I'd suggest you to concentrate on those questions.

Hope this has been of any help...

I remember when I got my first one... tons of technical questions went thru my mind... and it all came clear when I talked to the breeder.

Have a great time with your future pup !

 

[Cowtown]

Thank you Djanick...I greatly appreciate the reply. Both these litters are from the same breeder..Topbrass.

I believe they have directed me to these two litters based on what I've told them I am looking for, my experience, etc.

I can pretty much pick either litter. I have decided on a male but I will let the breeder pick a dog for me...I just need to pick the litter.

Like you said, it's a tossup and both are very similar. Sox and Phlyer have both been bred before and also have been bred to each other.

Milla x Jagger have never been bred before to any other dogs and this is the first litters for both of them. I guess I'm saying there is a bit of a known quantity of a Sox/Phlyer pup and more unknown what Milla and Jagger will put out.

Having said that, I think am leaning to Milla x Jagger. I like the looks of Jagger and his dad Yogi has sired some great dogs. Milla is a neat dog and has a great field pedigree too. (But so does Sox in the other litter).

Yeah, it's all so confusing and hard when it comes down to pulling the trigger for the first time. I wanted to go this route on my first dog. I may get another dog in a year or two and may go Golden but field on both sides or may go lab or chessie.

 

[Redgolden]

hmmm... If these litters are from the same breeder, the Jagger's one seems good. As for a future dog, a full hunting Golden breeding would make your joy and pride. They are natural upland hunting dogs and can become a wonderful companion if you extend your hunt to waterfowl !

Here is a link that was putted lately that explains nicely the 3 breeds and may inspire your next choice (or may influence your actual) :
http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/breeds.html

It's been a pleasure and if you have other questions, don't hesitate to drop a line (but I won't answer tonight... it's bed time now) !

 

[Cowtown]

Redgolden, I have read that article but thanks, it's a good one!...I think I read a post of yours awhile back where you linked it.

I have never hunted waterfowl in 42 years. I'd like to but don't have access to it and don't know really anyone who does. I mainly hunt dove and some quail...with maybe 1 pheasant hunt a year.

When I started my research, I first started off thinking I was going to get a full hunting Golden but was told (maybe incorrectly) that the dog would maybe be more than I wanted and more go than I could handle. A dog with a little conformation in it would be calmer and better suited to a newer dog owner (since I haven't had one in 20 years). Maybe I should rethink the full hunting Golden part though....I love the red Goldens!

 

[MikeBoley]

Redgolden, I have read that article but thanks, it's a good one!...I think I read a post of yours awhile back where you linked it.

I have never hunted waterfowl in 42 years. I'd like to but don't have access to it and don't know really anyone who does. I mainly hunt dove and some quail...with maybe 1 pheasant hunt a year.

When I started my research, I first started off thinking I was going to get a full hunting Golden but was told (maybe incorrectly) that the dog would maybe be more than I wanted and more go than I could handle. A dog with a little conformation in it would be calmer and better suited to a newer dog owner (since I haven't had one in 20 years). Maybe I should rethink the full hunting Golden part though....I love the red Goldens!

I think anytime bench people start talking about field bred dogs being to much dog for an inexperienced handler its a cop out. They are trying to push there low prey drive dogs off on unsuspecting buyers. The hardest dog to train to hunt, hunt test or field trial is the one with lack of desire. If you truley want a hunting campanion get one bred for that.
Just MHO.

 

[Klamath Hunting Gold]

One link on the golden pedigree page (k9Data) that doesn get enough use is the link to the 5 generation longevity. I often look there to see what flags show up. I dont like to see dogs that have passed away at the age of 7. To see several in a line is a big warning flag. Have you researched this?

 

[Klamath Hunting Gold]

Follow up to previous post: Jackie (Topbrass) has done a fine job for years of breeding retrievers, especially goldens. Likely you will do well if you go with her. My comments were just to give you another tool to do research with.

 

[Thomas D]

I saw Jagger about 2 weeks ago at Central Florida's HT. He's a beautiful dog. Our neighbors bred the litter and I was there to play with them when they were 3 weeks old. I trained with his mother, Sony. Dee and John did a good job with the litter and Mike and Pat have done a good job with Jagger.

 

[Furball]

I think anytime bench people start talking about field bred dogs being to much dog for an inexperienced handler its a cop out. They are trying to push there low prey drive dogs off on unsuspecting buyers. The hardest dog to train to hunt, hunt test or field trial is the one with lack of desire. If you truley want a hunting campanion get one bred for that.
Just MHO.

A lot of times this is true but the "show dog" sire quickly got his Senior Hunter at 2 yrs of age which is way above and beyond your normal "show dog."
No, Jagger is no fire breather but he is a good hunting companion, intelligent, trainable and tractable.
His sire (Yogi) does not have upper level HT titles but has produced multiple Senior and Master hunters. They are birdy and again -- trainability and bidability, very high.
Jagger's maternal grandmother had 4 Master passes when she died; her mother was the first OTCH/MH golden bitch in history (Breeze), her father one of the few modern CH/UD/MH goldens who ran field trials (Expo). Lot of working background in that pedigree!

First reply here is a good one -- because both litters are such an outcross there is going to be a wide range of energy levels and looks between the puppies. Talk with the breeder and trust him/her to select an appropriate one. Both are nice litters.

 

[Buzz]

I've always felt that the LAST thing I'd want to do is give ANYONE advice on what breeding to pick.

 

[zoomngoldens]

In addition to looking at the longevity pedigree on k9data I always look at the vertical pedigree to see what the siblings have accomplished. The owner of the sire/dam, grandsire/granddam may have focused on obedience or agility so the dog's natural ability for field work may not have been brought out. But maybe owners of siblings did do field work and you can see those titles in the vertical pedigree. It's just another piece of information that can help you make your decision.

 

[Codatango]

I agree with the Jagger comments and the Yogi influence. You see something other than just an 'CH' on the dogs. Yet it wouldn't hurt to look up what the offspring of the other litter have done on K9data. For sure, you have to go with the puppy testing, but also the more you can find out about the parents, the better. Esp birdiness and water desire.

I found this thread interesting, since I have a 2 yr old of a similar breeding 'type'. That is, show lines to field lines. The sire is "Bro", and the dam is all show lines - piles of CH back there. But the breeder does a lot of obedience, so there is at least some performance ability/brains there.

Previously, all my dogs were from show lines with some drive, but I did want MORE field ability from my next dog. I went with this breeding because the mother was extremely birdy (esp HER mother!), even tho she did very little field training. And the pups were all birdy (chased the pigeon all over). Plus, the dam's line all loved the water.
'Rondo' got a lot of his drive and marking ability from daddy 'Bro'. AND the flying leap into the water! Bro has been a good producer, and it's interesting the influence he had on this particular show line. The whole litter was very much the same in looks and drive. This was a good 'blend'.
(I feel very lucky!)
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=289070

Personally, I'd be interested in the Jagger litter if I was ready for another dog!

Debbie Tandoc,
San Jose, CA

 

[Cowtown]

Thank you to everyone for your helpful thoughts.

You've given me a lot to think about and more to research!

Merry Christmas to all.

 

[Thomas D]

A lot of times this is true but the "show dog" sire quickly got his Senior Hunter at 2 yrs of age which is way above and beyond your normal "show dog."
No, Jagger is no fire breather but he is a good hunting companion, intelligent, trainable and tractable.
His sire (Yogi) does not have upper level HT titles but has produced multiple Senior and Master hunters. They are birdy and again -- trainability and bidability, very high.
Jagger's maternal grandmother had 4 Master passes when she died; her mother was the first OTCH/MH golden bitch in history (Breeze), her father one of the few modern CH/UD/MH goldens who ran field trials (Expo). Lot of working background in that pedigree!

First reply here is a good one -- because both litters are such an outcross there is going to be a wide range of energy levels and looks between the puppies. Talk with the breeder and trust him/her to select an appropriate one. Both are nice litters.

Anney, Is your Fisher a brother to Jagger? Or was that the other litter on the ground at the same time?

 

[Cowtown]

Anney, Is your Fisher a brother to Jagger? Or was that the other litter on the ground at the same time?

Yes, Fisher and Jagger are brothers.

 

[Furball]

Hi Tom, yes Fisher and Jagger are brothers so I feel qualified to speak about him
FWIW the other litter that was a week older than them...just a few weeks ago the big red boy from that litter finished his breed CH.
Although Dee & John haven't been active with their own dogs lately, of their breeding they have two new Champions, a MACH (agility champion), a Senior Hunter and a variety of other new performance titles in 2009 alone.