[John Robinson]

If you look at my original post it says this:



In answer to your question, I do NOT think it is a good idea to mix methods. It is a pattern I have fallen into when I have problems(for competitive obedience, not field) that I can not fix and my trainer gives me answers/advice I believe to be way way way off base. I am busy analyzing what I can do to overcome this pattern because I think I would be much more successful if I did pick a method and stuck to it.

You probably do not want to hear specific examples of the problems I am having because they are not field problems.

I don't know your problems specifically, but field issues are often tied to obedience-issues. It all starts with the walk to the holding blind.

John

 

[JS]

.....

I think some people are confusing different trainer's methods of applications to different programs.

Absolutely!

For instance, I know many trainers that CC to here first to gain control of that 4 month phase where the pups say I don't have to come to you, I can chase butterflies and others FF first. This is not a radical change in the program.

Very good example of making an appropriate modification within a particular "program".

The crucial point is to have an understanding of what is to come. Why am I doing this? How does this fit in to what I will be doing next and on down the road? Generally, this understanding comes with experience ... successes AND mistakes. Some people though, can train 100 dogs and still not get it. They are too mechanically analytical, try to overthink everything, just aren't what you would call "good dog people". Others just seem to "think like a dog" from the very start.

When someone asks a lot of good questions in an attempt to gain a better understanding, I believe their questions deserve answers. No one has asked, "WHY" more than I have ... though not necessarily to a faceless name on the internet ... and I'm sure thankful for those that have been patient with me!

JS

 

[PhilBernardi]

In answer to your question, I do NOT think it is a good idea to mix methods. It is a pattern I have fallen into when I have problems(for competitive obedience, not field) that I can not fix and my trainer gives me answers/advice I believe to be way way way off base. I am busy analyzing what I can do to overcome this pattern because I think I would be much more successful if I did pick a method and stuck to it.

You believe to be way way off base Why? Is it because it's not part of your program that you are following? What does the program suggest is the answer (or maybe the author of the program, if he/she can answer a direct question from you)?

My experience on this site is that 99% of the posting is about obedience for retrievers being trained for field work, not for obedience (ring) work. Then again, I probably just move on when those questions come up - probably should have in the case too. :monkey:

If you're conflicted because of the advice from your trainer being different from your program or different from your experience, then either post specifically what the issue is that needs to be resolved (dog behavior that is) or lose your trainer.

 

[RobinZClark]

All of my disagreements with trainers are regarding "reading my dog", and not so much the method I think. I had one trainer, Ms. A who thought my dog was not putting forth enough effort and needed to be corrected harder. Three years down the road, I still believe that she was wrong and that he was just a slow learner. He is a conformation keeshond who I had as just a pet...his breeder said his parents were as dumb as rocks. It is hard to imagine that a dog could be as slow to learn things as he is....but I've done my best to be patient and basically just use attrition on him. When he does understand something he does a very nice job. But it literally takes him YEARS. Bless his heart. I am so glad that I stopped applying hard corrections on him (as I was advised to do) because they just caused him to panic and learn NOT AT ALL.

My current trainer, Ms. B, thinks that my dog (my Aussie) is "bored" and I need to train her to do different things and give her a break from obedience. I disagree. I think she needs a "come to jesus Meeting" and I need to take away many of her privledges. I am 3 weeks into using my ideas instead of Ms B's ideas and I am seeing a completely different and improved dog.

Does that describe my situation? Both of Ms A's and Ms B's methods are very similar because they worked together for a long time.

 

[PhilBernardi]

All of my disagreements with trainers are regarding "reading my dog", and not so much the method I think. I had one trainer, Ms. A who thought my dog was not putting forth enough effort and needed to be corrected harder. Three years down the road, I still believe that she was wrong and that he was just a slow learner. He is a conformation keeshond who I had as just a pet...his breeder said his parents were as dumb as rocks. It is hard to imagine that a dog could be as slow to learn things as he is....but I've done my best to be patient and basically just use attrition on him. When he does understand something he does a very nice job. But it literally takes him YEARS. Bless his heart. I am so glad that I stopped applying hard corrections on him (as I was advised to do) because they just caused him to panic and learn NOT AT ALL.

My current trainer, Ms. B, thinks that my dog (my Aussie) is "bored" and I need to train her to do different things and give her a break from obedience. I disagree. I think she needs a "come to jesus Meeting" and I need to take away many of her privledges. I am 3 weeks into using my ideas instead of Ms B's ideas and I am seeing a completely different and improved dog.

Does that describe my situation? Both of Ms A's and Ms B's methods are very similar because they worked together for a long time.

Seems the answer to your problem was there all along. Pull the trigger and move on. :BIG:

 

[RobinZClark]

Another point that I want to make. I am NOT critical of any of the trainers we've discussed and their methods. I do NOT think that Bill Hillman's soft collar approach is "nagging". I am just asking questions to promote discussion that deepens my understanding. Mr. Hillman and Mr. Lardy are brilliant dog trainers and PEOPLE trainers. I am only asking questions so that I can understand their methods better. If I did not believe them to be awesome I would not be buying their DVDs and spending so much time trying to understand the basic fundamentals behind them.

I **have** to understand the basic fundamentals behind them because I am using some of their concepts outside the realm of field training. I am not saying in any way shape or form that I know better than they do how to train dogs. If I understand the basic fundamentals behind their methods and strategies, I can benefit from their genius by applying their ideas to competitive obedience. Many obedience people are currently doing this with IPO/Ring Sport/Mondio Ring. We can all learn from each other.

 

[Happy Gilmore]

I can tell you one thing, you're not ever going to understand the methods they've developed until you use them for the purpose they were developed. Retrievers. At that point, understanding to "read" the dog working where and why the program was developed and why the specific drills and stages are in what order. So, picking and choosing little ideas "might" give you something here and there but, you won't ever understand "why" if you're not retriever training with someone standing next to you saying, "remember "X" drill" this is "why" we do it....

So, my "read" is that your dogs are neither bored nor lazy. They are probably confused which is why it takes one so long to learn. Confusion and uncertainty can cause an animal to shut down, not want to work or, work very slowly because they are trying not to get into trouble. Add years of trying new stuff, mixing ideas, taking from here and there without understanding what those methods are for probably has the dog about shut down...

 

[PhilBernardi]

Robin,

You seem like a nice kid and all, but ask specific questions in order to "...understand the basic fundamentals behind them..." and not the general question like the one you asked that started this thread.

Better yet, ask what you can do to solve a particular problem you are having with Fido. Maybe you'll get an answer that helps but maybe not - you decide.

Ask away so that the doctors here at St. Christopher's Animal Behavioral Hospital can attend to your specific problem. :wink:

 

[mountaindogs]

Yes, that is true. The results will show or not.
The journey is my favorite part.

 

[mountaindogs]

I think perhaps retriever folks forget that following a "program" is not so common in other venues. You are lucky in many ways to have so many brilliant trainers willing to develop and share. I also think training retrievers to high field levels looks to be very challenging with respect to many other dog sports. It's daunting and I am grateful there are organized programs I always always have more to learn.

 

[RobinZClark]

Robin,

You seem like a nice kid and all, but ask specific questions in order to "...

I am flattered that you find me so youthful Phil as I am a 53 year old woman It has been quite some time since anyone referred to me as a kid....

Here is a specific problem for you to chew on. My Aussie is 5 years old and has her utility dog title and scores in the low 90s. She loves people and is more interested in the judge and the spectators than I would like for her to be when we are in the competition ring. Half her mind is on what the people around are doing and that causes her to make errors in her work. In the past, I have done extensive work with her around lots of people (shopping mall entrances, training clubs, busy parks) where I give very strong corrections (grab her neck and shake her) when she looks away and I praise her when she looks back at me. I've also used a prong collar and given jerks on the collar when she looks away. She became much better but she has figured out that those things do not happen when we are in the ring with the judge. Currently I have pulled her out of competitions and I am using an ecollar to regain her attention when she gawks at people. This seems to be working rather well. I am still puzzled as to what the low level stim on the collar seems so much more effective than my previous corrections.

 

[RobinZClark]

Here is another specific problem for you to ponder. Olive (my Aussie) struggles with the "signal" exercise where I leave her in a stand position, walk 30 feet away, give a hand signal to "down", then a hand signal to "sit" and finally a hand signal to "come". She appears to be genuinely puzzled about the correct thing to do. Some days she is great, other days she makes many mistakes. It takes dogs a long time to learn this exercise and I do not understand why because it seems very simple to me.

Anyway, this past weekend I tried doing signals when she had the ecollar on. It is a dogtra collar set to 20. When I gave her the down signal, she seemed confused and laid down but I did not think her elbows were on the ground. I gave her a nick, then said in a neutral tone, "down". She immediately settled into a perfect down, her ears perked up and she actually smiled. Then she did the sit and recall perfectly. You could have knocked me over with a feather. I took Bill Hillman's soft collar approach, applied it to the signal exercise and she really seemed to gain some kind of understanding. I am going to continue to follow this protocol in the hopes that she continues to become more confident.

I would like to understand what is happening in this situation. Why did she seem so happy after the nick?

 

[Happy Gilmore]

If your dog won't obey you at 30' I'm thinking there isn't any reason for you to be using an e-collar.

 

[RobinZClark]

If your dog won't obey you at 30' I'm thinking there isn't any reason for you to be using an e-collar.​

That is not a very helpful reply. Do any of your dogs have a Utility Dog title? Probably getting a Utility Dog title with average scores in the low 90's would be so easy that you wouldn't find it challenging.

But thanks for trying.

 

[Laurie McCain]

Check your pm file

Laurie

 

[PhilBernardi]

Stupid question: Have you read Morgan Spector's Clicker Training for Obedience: Shaping Top Performance-Positively?

I don't have it in front of me, but I clearly remember him going over shaping behavior for the ring.

One thing to suggest is trying to create an artificial ring environment with friends. Go the local county fairgrounds and use their ring(s) and have lots of distractions etc.

Field trainers try to create a test environment from time to time so the dog has a good idea of what to expect and to allow the trainer to get corrections in while in a controlled settting. No reason not to do the same thing here.

 

[RobinZClark]

Have you read Morgan Spector's Clicker Training for Obedience: Shaping Top Performance-Positively?

I do have the book, but I am not a fan. The highest title that Mr. Spector has achieved in competition is a CDX (on a sheltie). The CDX is a step down from the UD. I've earned 3 UDs in the past 4 years on three different breeds. One of them a Keeshond.

 

[Happy Gilmore]

That is not a very helpful reply. Do any of your dogs have a Utility Dog title? Probably getting a Utility Dog title with average scores in the low 90's would be so easy that you wouldn't find it challenging.

But thanks for trying.

No but, I can seat a bitch when she's on a wild running pheasant. Didn't teach her that trick with a collar.

See, she's running around naked, without an e-collar...

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

I do have the book, but I am not a fan. The highest title that Mr. Spector has achieved in competition is a CDX (on a sheltie). The CDX is a step down from the UD. I've earned 3 UDs in the past 4 years on three different breeds. One of them a Keeshond.

Are you saying books written by people with no recent accomplishments are not desirable?

/paul

 

[John Robinson]

Robin while some on here also do Obedience, I'd say the great majority are more into and understanding of the retriever games, field trials, hunt test and such, so most are probably like me and assumed your OP was asking about some of the well known retriever programs. I personally know very little about Obedience trials and training, so I can't help you with that. You sound like you have been successful in that game, so probably know more about it than most here, maybe Janice Gunn can pop in again, she would be a big help.

John