[Mike Perry]

http://cryingwolfmovie.com/

MP

 

[43x]

 

[Waterdogs]

That is a good video.

 

[TollerLover]

Very well done. Jeffrey is a remarkable young man.

 

[BHB]

Now there's a young man that has his head screwed on straight! He sought out the TRUTH instead of taking the "opinions" of all his professors and their liberal cohorts.

Really, the people that are living in these areas that are affected by the wolf should have had much more of a say in whether the wolves should've been reintroduced! They said what they had to at the time but were ignored for a more "socialist" view!

I don't know about any of you hunters out there but I am infuriated by the fact that they started all this by using MY Pittman/Robertson funds!

BHB

 

[bamaflinger]

I really enjoyed that, thanks for posting.

 

[HPL]

Well, an interesting piece, but certainly not an unbiased look at the situation. Some of the statements by the folks interviewed were pretty misleading especially when reporting that the biologists had said that Yellowstone could support around 100 wolves and then showing a graph of the wolf population increasing to 1600 or so and implying that now there were many times what was recommended when in fact the Yellowstone wolf population peaked around 120 animals and is now below 100. Those photos of all the "wolf pelts" are clearly mostly coyotes and in the only one where you can definitely see some wolves, I only picked out three. They also imply that all those ranchers are raising animals on their own property when many are certainly grazing BLM and other PUBLIC lands which technically belong to all of us, as do the lands that the outfitters are hunting. Since that is PUBLIC land I get a say too, and I say we should have a well managed wolf population on those lands. I have no problem with managing the wolf populations, but unfortunately for those folks, well managed means extirpated. Put a season on them, control their numbers, charge for tags and let the outfitters make a living that way. I don't mind some of my tax money going to compensate the ranchers for proven wolf kills (I mean, after all, we are already subsidizing them with cheap grazing rights on PUBLIC lands in many areas of the west.) I won't even address the "God made us the master of the world so we can do whatever we want" argument as those folks simply can't be reasoned with.

As outside reading, I would point you to a couple of essays;
"Lost Margins in the Abandoned Farm" Eugene M. Poirot, 1964
"The Value of Diversity", Douglass H. Pimlott, 1969

 

[GBUSMCR]

Well worth watching and supporting!
Yep, and I'm all for fire ants in Texas. I'm all for wolves in Yellowstone BUT NOT outside of the park.

 

[HPL]

I don't know about any of you hunters out there but I am infuriated by the fact that they started all this by using MY Pittman/Robertson funds!

BHB

I have no problem with my PR funds being used to promote wildlife diversity. (kinda funny that the guy who first mentioned PR got the name wrong).

 

[BHB]

...Since that is PUBLIC land I get a say too, and I say we should have a well managed wolf population on those lands. ...

I'll bet that if you lived and worked in those areas affected by the wolves you would have a different take on the matter.

BHB

 

[GBUSMCR]

Years ago New Mexico tried to get non-consumptive users (bird watchers, hikers, etc) to buy a "habitat" stamp to support non-game species. Non-consumptive users wouldn't buy the stamp. So, the solution was to require all hunters to buy the stamp. Most every state now has a habitat stamp required. Guess its that control issue. I do have a problem with how they use the PR money. I hear biodiversity all the time and its a pretty far reaching term applied to lots of things. If you want biodiversity, then start a tax to fund that program. Going to need something anyway when sportsman finally say enough is enough and push to repeal the PR.

 

[HPL]

I'll bet that if you lived and worked in those areas affected by the wolves you would have a different take on the matter.

BHB

Perhaps, but I doubt it. I live in an area where we have to be aware of rattlesnakes, alligators, coyotes, etc. and although I am careful, I am not advocating the extirpation of any of these. I don't swerve to run over rattlers (and in fact swerve to miss them when I can), although will remove or kill those I find close to the house, and scout any pond where I might swim my dog very carefully so as to minimize the threat posed by gators.

 

[BHB]

Perhaps, but I doubt it. I live in an area where we have to be aware of rattlesnakes, alligators, coyotes, etc. and although I am careful, I am not advocating the extirpation of any of these. I don't swerve to run over rattlers (and in fact swerve to miss them when I can), although will remove or kill those I find close to the house, and scout any pond where I might swim my dog very carefully so as to minimize the threat posed by gators.

I understand... but let me pose a question. If you lived in wolf country and were raising cattle and a family wouldn't you remove the threat to your livelihood and your pets and possibly your family just as you are removing the gators and rattlesnakes close to your home?

It is the same for these ranchers. Removing the wolves lets them have a living and protect their family and pets. Yes, wolves kill dogs ferociously whenever they come into their territory, and it's all their territory! And also, they can't just be "relocated" because they travel much more than gators!

I'm just challenging you to look at it from their point of view. The difference between rattlesnakes that come into your yard and gators in your ponds are not any different from the wolf that kills your calves and dogs. Except that when they kill your calves that is your livelihood, not your hobby.

BHB

 

[GoldenSail]

I found the movie to be pretty biased myself.

 

[charly_t]

Perhaps, but I doubt it. I live in an area where we have to be aware of rattlesnakes, alligators, coyotes, etc. and although I am careful, I am not advocating the extirpation of any of these. I don't swerve to run over rattlers (and in fact swerve to miss them when I can), although will remove or kill those I find close to the house, and scout any pond where I might swim my dog very carefully so as to minimize the threat posed by gators.

HPL, you are a nice person with a lot of "smarts". So here it is.......how many of your own dogs lost to gators would it take for you to want the gators really, really well controlled. Another way to look at is if the wolves are killing the percentage of your livestock ( if you made your living raising livestock ) that represents your profit for the year and you can no longer afford to take care of your family how would you feel then. Not trying to pick on you and I do respect you. A coyote that raids free ranging chickens will come back day after day to the same flock of chickens taking at least one evey day ( more if it has pups to feed ). I'm pretty sure that wolves will tend to hunt in the same area till they deplete the game or livestock in that area.

 

[charly_t]

I understand... but let me pose a question. If you lived in wolf country and were raising cattle and a family wouldn't you remove the threat to your livelihood and your pets and possibly your family just as you are removing the gators and rattlesnakes close to your home?

It is the same for these ranchers. Removing the wolves lets them have a living and protect their family and pets. Yes, wolves kill dogs ferociously whenever they come into their territory, and it's all their territory! And also, they can't just be "relocated" because they travel much more than gators!

I'm just challenging you to look at it from their point of view. The difference between rattlesnakes that come into your yard and gators in your ponds are not any different from the wolf that kills your calves and dogs. Except that when they kill your calves that is your livelihood, not your hobby.

BHB

I was too slow typing. I see you covered the subject very well. Thank you. I think you did a better job than I did

 

[dr_dog_guy]

Tangential to the discussion is the state habitat stamps. In NM, the state G&F takes that money, sits down with federal land managers that have habitat improvement projects planned, and citizen advisors. Subcommittees of citizens cover different regions of the state, and them come together at a state meeting. The feds propose the projects and we (the citizens) rank them. The money is allocated based on the money available and the ranking of the committees. Every citizen on my committee is a hunter and/or fisherman, so we have a strong voice in how that money is spent.

 

[okie drake]

I understand... but let me pose a question. If you lived in wolf country and were raising cattle and a family wouldn't you remove the threat to your livelihood and your pets and possibly your family just as you are removing the gators and rattlesnakes close to your home?

It is the same for these ranchers. Removing the wolves lets them have a living and protect their family and pets. Yes, wolves kill dogs ferociously whenever they come into their territory, and it's all their territory! And also, they can't just be "relocated" because they travel much more than gators!

I'm just challenging you to look at it from their point of view. The difference between rattlesnakes that come into your yard and gators in your ponds are not any different from the wolf that kills your calves and dogs. Except that when they kill your calves that is your livelihood, not your hobby.

BHB

You might consider the already mentioned distinction that in many cases said ranchers are grazing on public, not private, land.....correct?

 

[HPL]

Those of you pointing out that folks who make a living raising livestock in what was originally and is becoming again "wolf country" are probably facing some challenges that are new to them are absolutely correct. That I don't face those particular challenges is also correct. I was however at one time responsible for a herd of goats on South Texas brushland and we certainly lost animals to coyotes. I had to have effective fences and gather the goats EVERY evening and bring them in to paddock. We didn't attempt to eradicate the coyotes. I realize that this is not a practical solution for cattle ranchers in the west, but is just an example of finding ways to work around a situation. You will also notice that I haven't said that wolves should be given a free pass. It should be relatively easy with the amount of data currently available to establish the size of the population required to maintain sufficient genetic diversity to keep the wolf population healthy. That should be the starting point for wolf management. The ranchers utilizing public lands should basically be told that we, the people of the United States are willing to lease some of our land to them for the purpose of raising livestock with these conditions: we have decided that we like bio-diversity on our lands and where the ranchers' interests collide with our interest in maintaining that diversity, our interests supersede those of the ranchers. That because we see the ranchers activities as also desirable, we will work with them to minimize these collisions and will, when appropriate, take measures to allow the reduction of the wolf population and also when appropriate, compensate them for losses incurred when OUR wolves kill their livestock grazing on OUR land.
I did object the the very biased and misleading tenor of the video. No question they had a side and that they poo-pooed the scientists unless they were their scientists, one of whom seemed to base his scientific position on his religious beliefs.
As for the outfitters, they can convert some of their operations to guiding wolf hunters, and especially, guiding the ever-increasing numbers of nature photographers to photograph wolves, and other denizens of the wild. I would direct anyone interested in tapping into the profit potential of helping photographers get the shot to look up "The Rio Grande Valley Land Fund", "The Coastal Bend Wildlife Photo Contest", "Images for Conservation Fund", or contact John Martin in McAllen, Texas.
Professions and ways of earning a living change over time. How many of ya'll are or even know a wheelwright?

 

[Marvin S]

How many of ya'll are or even know a wheelwright?

Hanson Wheel & Wagon just N of Mitchell SD .

Those ranchers think the leaseholds are their property.

The elk around Gardiner needed thinning, but those by Cody did not. Neither side in this issue is very honest - so they will get what they deserve. Lots of money available on this issue, when that runs out then things will be resolved .