[Arnie]

Hmm I'd set him up for remote marking and sends; if your not beside him to screw him up, he should go to where he knows the bird is. Bring a nice chair to sit in why he does the work Problem Solved

That's exactly what I talked about in my earlier posts.

I just came back from a good training session. Set up multiple (hidden) wingers with falls in knee high cover at ~80+ yards (varied depths). Walked to the line, told him to sit and mark. Did NOT line him up. Started out with a couple of singles and worked up to varied multiples but did not move my feet from the original marks. Left it up to him to keep track of the falls. The only cues he had were quacks from the winger remotes (we can't use primers where we train) before each launch. He did fine with no errors. After each retrieve he looked to the area of the next fall on his own.

I now realize the problem was my fault. No more cute tricks such as blinds before completing all marked falls. I was teaching him to not rely on his memory.

 

[2tall]

Quit helping him! If it's a mark and he looks to you for direction, cross your arms in front of you and wait him out. Make him responsible. Make sure you give him clear cues to distinguish marks and blinds every single time you send. And I'd stay away from poison bird or between the marks blinds until he has some confidence. Good luck, sounds like a nice dog!

 

[RookieTrainer]

Quit helping him! If it's a mark and he looks to you for direction, cross your arms in front of you and wait him out. Make him responsible. Make sure you give him clear cues to distinguish marks and blinds every single time you send. And I'd stay away from poison bird or between the marks blinds until he has some confidence. Good luck, sounds like a nice dog!

This. I got a good lesson in this a few weeks back. Don't handle except to keep the dog from switching or going to an old fall - and then it would still be MUCH better if you had your bird thrower help keep him in the area instead of you handling.

 

[Todd Caswell]

This. I got a good lesson in this a few weeks back. Don't handle except to keep the dog from switching or going to an old fall - and then it would still be MUCH better if you had your bird thrower help keep him in the area instead of you handling.

OR if your teaching him to fight factors

 

[22899]

This was your original question.

"My question is how do we transition back to him regaining confidence in his own marks and not line up on me."

I dont understand why you would want to teach him NOT to line up on you!!

Even though its the dogs responsibility to mark a fall,, I firmly believe that the handler has a HUGE responsibility to help the dog as much as possible. You are working as a team. neither one entity is self employed.

Dont we work hard to teach "Go as sent'?

As far as not handling on marks.
How do you teach a dog to run straight, and actually "Go as Sent" if you dont handle?

If a mark is 250+yards away, but the line to the fall requires the dog to swim a shore line, How do you teach this without handeling to keep the dog off land?

The Bird Boy is a long way away to be able to help you much.I really dont understand how he could ever be of much help in this situation..

Gooser

 

[22899]

Maybe its just me. But, I think there will come a time at a test ,for what evr reason, you will have to handle on a mark.
That Handel better be quick and clean.
The dog has to be comfortable being handled on marks also!

If you want to reduce the chance this from happening, (having to handel) then IMHO,, you better take the responsibility as the handler, to line the dog up correctly after the go bird, take your time before you send to let him focus, then send, when you have read the dog has "Got It"..

Again,,MHO

Gooser

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

This was your original question.

"My question is how do we transition back to him regaining confidence in his own marks and not line up on me."

I dont understand why you would want to teach him NOT to line up on you!!

Even though its the dogs responsibility to mark a fall,, I firmly believe that the handler has a HUGE responsibility to help the dog as much as possible. You are working as a team. neither one entity is self employed.

Gooser[/COLOR]

In A test your absolutely right, you help them as much as you can when it's needed. In training you teach them to be independent and responsible for marks, lining themselves up, knowing where it is, how to find it by themselves and how to get there correctly, etc. So that in a test your help will (hopefully) not be needed .

A very tractable dog, as the one described here, oftentimes prefers to give up control to the handler; thus the focus of their training must be Independence. Other types of Fire-ball dogs; prefer to do it all themselves thus the focus of their training is usually cooperation.

 

[Todd Caswell]

In A test your absolutely right, you help them as much as you can when it's needed. In training you teach them to be independent and responsible for marks, lining themselves up, knowing where it is, how to find it by themselves and how to get there correctly, etc. So that in a test your help will (hopefully) not be needed .

A very tractable dog, as the one described here, oftentimes prefers to give up control to the handler; thus the focus of their training must be Independence. Other types of Fire-ball dogs; prefer to do it all themselves thus the focus of their training is usually cooperation.

I agree to a point but even in training I want the dog to line up on my body positioning, I don't want him comming back lining up on the bird he wants to pick up next, at a trial or a test I may give in but in training you line up on me and go were sent, now once he lines up on the bird I want next it's up to him to get there unless he's not giving any effort on the line to the mark then we'll handle accordingly..

 

[22899]

I want US to be successful in training too.

We will not see white on test day, but I as the handler wears it, for the most occation, the gunners wear it.
I want to make sure dog SEES first.

Gooser

 

[Arnie]

A very tractable dog, as the one described here, oftentimes prefers to give up control to the handler; thus the focus of their training must be Independence. Other types of Fire-ball dogs; prefer to do it all themselves thus the focus of their training is usually cooperation.

I train with Hunt'EmUP (though not as often as I'd like). She knows that I'm still pretty much a novice and I still get a bit overwhelmed at the line. She also knows that Gage tries very hard to do what I ask of him. This combination can lead to problems such as the one I created and am now working to fix.

Most times I have to train alone. I thought I could supplement my two wingers by adding a blind or two in between marks to work on his memory. It backfired in that he expected me to send him to all successive falls. If I was off even a little he would pass on the mark and look for another bird. Prior to this he was a good marker with a pretty good memory. For example we had one Master series where we ran last at number 46. It was a land and water triple with a bulldog. One after another dogs were being handled or dropped. Of the 46 only 10 dogs had a clean run. Gage was one of them and I was told he probably had the best run of the day.

Before I messed up all I had to do was face in the direction of the fall and he would do the rest. I know that I have to get better at the line but I want to get him thinking for himself again as well.

 

[22899]

Very interesting thread for me.
I think you have described Gooser and his current dog to a "T"
It sounds like identical teams.

I would go to my weekend Pro guided training group, and run those st ups as suggested.As you did, during the week when I is alls bymyselves, I would mimic those set ups, with the blinds between, under the arc, on a dailey basis, not thinking that the was a probability that those other folks switched it up during the week, to maintain balance.

I have started to run singles during the week , alternating blinds every other day. I am not combining the two anymore.

My dog withh het blinds in the marks, bit knly on the 1 day a week, someone can keep an eye on me.

I gurss its back to that "balance " deal

Thank you for the thread

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

As this dog, has a tendency to always give up control, prefers it. I wouldn't be running blinds and marks together. I also wouldn't be running any drills that takes control away from the dog together with marks. Example; the dog is not going to pick up a poison-bird once you tell him leave it, he's also not going to pick up a bull-dog (so why focus on control drills?) Until he's back to being responsible for his marks, I wouldn't handle him to marks, I'd bring him back and resend him (make him do it all by himself). My dog was very much like this, she prefers me to handle (it's her way of misbehaving), once she learned, that I wasn't going to handle her, that I'd let her get all the way out in LALA land, correct her and bring her all the way back (which she hates), to resend. She found completely different ways of misbehaving that don't involve taking wrong lines so I'd handle her to a mark .

TC I agree having the ability of secondary selection is important, however in this case I think; the dog has a bit too much of such things, and it's more important to make the dog do it himself. I have a feeling the OP could line this dog on any mark, pull him off that mark and send him in any direction, and he'd turn and go the way he was pointed, probably even pass up a marked bird just to the side of that line. Balance in all things.

Arnie Good luck at the test this weekend...Don't mess with Gage too much at the line. Let him ride. Give him time to think, he's gonna take your casts so don't worry about letting him hunt. Keep control on his blinds all the way to the end. Big (I mean it whistles, not wimpy ones). Remember your part of the team, can't help your dog if you go Zombie at the line . Don't throw-up-pass out etc. Oh and HAVE FUN, yes these things are supposed to be fun

 

[Arnie]

Turned out to be a great test this weekend. We made it though to the third series which was a walk up water triple. The walk up memory bird was short, with the line to it just a couple of yards inside the shore at the end of the pond. The go bird (flyer) was across the pond intended to fall on the shore. For some some lucky dogs the bird landed in the water. For some the bird landed beyond the intended open area up a hillside and into heavy cover. The middle bird was also across the pond 90 degrees from the first beyond the pond and up a long steep hill. At the top of the hill was heavy cover but the bird was supposed to land in the open. Sure enough both of our go and second birds landed in the heavy cover. I did not spend much time lining Gage up, just turned toward the marks. I was pretty sure he had marked them. He pinned them! I then lined him up on my left side for the memory bird. The shore was on our right. The only thing that would take him out was if he ran the shore.......... He was so amped up from the first two retrieves he decided it would be much quicker to push past me and run the bank to the bird. :-x So much for working on his independence.

Believe me, he's been shore broke although we will be revisiting this part of his training.

Still, it was a great weekend. There were a number of people that generously critiqued my line actions and really helped me fix some problems that I wasn't even aware of. For this I am really grateful. You know who you are!

 

[RookieTrainer]

OR if your teaching him to fight factors

Yes, I should have added that as well.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

:-x So much for working on his independence.

Hey He went to the bird all by himself and didn't take an incorrect line, past a bird straight to the middle of No-Where, which was the point of this thread. That particular problem has been solved (Now you want something else? <tisk tisk>). Plus that was a pretty cheat-y lil mark, the shore was pretty close to on the way, he already got completely wet for the other 2, and wet for the marks the series before that. The dog was just shortening up a test before it got too dark (time management) . Judges are just too particular LOL

 

[A team]

Arnie,

You and Gage did a great job, you played all weekend and Gage looke very good. The good thing about tests is that they gives up us take aways to train on.

Be careful, don't get caught up on focusing on the issue that cost you a Master ribbon. Add the issue into your trainig regiment with balane. You don't want to start nagging and erode all the momentum and confidence you've worked so hard to create.