[DarrinGreene]

Darrin,For me at least it's not simply about a little kibble.....Darrin “2.Never understand the psychological details of what you're preaching -just follow the program.” To me, this theme has been reflective of many of your comments in this and other threads.

Really? Because if I posted an article on triggers as it relates to this thread I would have gotten pummeled for making things "too complicated". My day is triggers and reactions and changing dog's expectations of outcomes. That's how behavior modification (50% or more of my business) works. I couldn't feed myself if I didn't understand the psychology of not only the dog but the person doing the training.

Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited to get his collar put on. I offered an alternative solution to "increase your obedience standard" aka correct him. So what exactly is the big deal? Darrin offered the suggestion, that's all. Polmaise can say the exact same thing and people thank him for it. If I wrote that piece on triggers I would have gotten laughed at.

Maybe I think the dog needs to learn to think then he's in that high state of drive instead of being knocked out of it with a correction? Maybe... just maybe I think that a field retriever needs to know how to make good decisions when he's high as a kite in the fourth with 4 fliers going off. Maybe I think he needs to learn to make these decisions without training visual training equipment (think heeling stick in hand). Maybe I think a lot of things but I'm tired of arguing with you guys so I'm going to give you all your way.

You've succeeded.

 

[Lurker]

*******************************************************************
Alright. one last thing I do. No program. Just me, observing my dogs.

Labs, for whatever reason, seem to like going between peoples legs, esp. when saying hello. (My neighbor, an old school retired vet, told me Labs seem to have this habit more so than other breeds). Anyhow, both of my labs, if I close my legs just a bit, will push their heads between my legs and then I pet their head and scratch their ears. Both of them love it. Will stand their for as logn as I pet/scratch them - pressing against me. Funny dogs. Anyhow, I bought their eCollars when they were puppies. The instructions that came with the collars stated that the collar should be put on while the dog is standing up to get the correct tightness. I don't think that point has been brought up, yet. Just came to me.

So, what I started doing, was scratching their head while they leaned into me, and then put the collar on. No fight, no nothing. They still do it - two years later.

Erik - pro-collar-putter-oner!!!!!

 

[sandcastles451]

I know I should just leave it at GOOOD.

But I can't stand this type of comment left hanging for any lurker striving for good informed guidance...

"Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited to get his collar put on. "

Where in Lardy, Graham, Stawski,Hillman, Akin, Voight and on and on, ever... ever advocate just "taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around"
The words "taking a heeling stick to a dog" are loaded and only serve to show, either your confusion, your inability to illustrate the actual concept or your direct intention to mislead, at the very least, on what the foundations are about. Yeah That's what we do in stick fetch...... really take it to our very high priced, loved and cherished enough to actually have an owner that cares about the dogs development, Yes, that must be the very foundations of these programs....

If more people followed the sound programs of their choice,,,,and tried to understand the building process, how to apply it to serve their very unique dog, and how it all comes together, you'd sure have a lot less employment

 

[Gauge123]

WOW!


Just.......... WOW!

Edit: Lurker, I'm glad you are getting the collar issue under control.

 

[Lurker]

Gauge123 hahahaha, you're funny. hahahaha

 

[DarrinGreene]

If more people followed the sound programs of their choice,,,,and tried to understand the building process, how to apply it to serve their very unique dog, and how it all comes together, you'd sure have a lot less employment

Very true statement right back to choosing the correct dog for their family, which a good number fail at.

I'm the bandaid on the brain surgery.

That said, I've done a few retrievers through basics. Three of my own and a few for others as well as being a part of training a few dozen under other accomplished trainers. I know how the program works and I know what results one should expect 9 mos post collar conditioning.

Again - sorry for trying to add to the discussion in a way other than the book dictates.

I will refrain from here on in believe me.

BTW - since you seem to have such in depth knowledge, why don't you post your name with your handle so people know where to go when they need advice. Easy to criticize when people have no idea who you are.

 

[sandcastles451]

Darrin,I like many here, use kibble, especially with young pups, same as you.
I feel a healing stick, in the wrong hands, without the proper foundations, can be devastating to a dog. I feel (and it's just my opinion) that it is possible for some followers of any program to misinterpret when to teach, when to deal with confusion and when to correct and to make the correction appropriate for the issue.

What I criticize is your stream of innuendos
“instead of being knocked out of it with a correction?”

“ I offered an alternative solution to "increase your obedience standard" aka correct him. "
Meaning all on here looking to increase an obedience standard are “aka correcting him.

“Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited“ “
and I could go on with examples from other threads.

Perhaps your actual experience was with a trainer that did these things?
I find it hard to believe that someone who knows the program (not sure if you mean a specific one or just in general) and how it works would say"Maybe I think the dog needs to learn to think then he's in that high state of drive instead of being knocked out of it with a correction? Maybe... just maybe I think that a field retriever needs to know how to make good decisions when he's high as a kite in the fourth with 4 fliers going off."

I respect opinions, I don't respect your innuendo laden attacks

 

[Terry Marshall]

Darrin,I like many here, use kibble, especially with young pups, same as you.
I feel a healing stick, in the wrong hands, without the proper foundations, can be devastating to a dog. I feel (and it's just my opinion) that it is possible for some followers of any program to misinterpret when to teach, when to deal with confusion and when to correct and to make the correction appropriate for the issue.

What I criticize is your stream of innuendos
“instead of being knocked out of it with a correction?”

“ I offered an alternative solution to "increase your obedience standard" aka correct him. "
Meaning all on here looking to increase an obedience standard are “aka correcting him.

“Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited“ “
and I could go on with examples from other threads.

Perhaps your actual experience was with a trainer that did these things?
I find it hard to believe that someone who knows the program (not sure if you mean a specific one or just in general) and how it works would say"Maybe I think the dog needs to learn to think then he's in that high state of drive instead of being knocked out of it with a correction? Maybe... just maybe I think that a field retriever needs to know how to make good decisions when he's high as a kite in the fourth with 4 fliers going off."

I respect opinions, I don't respect your innuendo laden attacks

Still don't know who you are.......

 

[mjh345]

You may be right in an isolated case Nancy, but having cupped a dog's chin with kibble in my hand about 100 times the last couple of years, that's not what usually happens. Once I have the e-collar on - sit means sit becomes one heck of a lot easier.

It's just a trick I use. That's all. I'm not sure why it drives people taking pot shots at me.

So the newbies you are teaching HAVE NOT done this 100's of times RIGHT???
Then why not rely on teaching these neophytes no frills basics and leave the kibble and confusion in the bag?

 

[DarrinGreene]

So the newbies you are teaching HAVE NOT done this 100's of times RIGHT???
Then why not rely on teaching these neophytes no frills basics and leave the kibble and confusion in the bag?

Because the average person looks at their family pet like a child or another family member. A few hunks of kibble while putting a collar on doesn't create any confusion Mark. It's really stupid easy to get the dog to lay his chin in the palm of your hand once he finds kibble there 50 or so times. It's just a solution that works and was incremental to what had been presented. I wasn't expecting an argument over it.

I said before, it's just a dumb trick to get rid of a dumb problem so we can move on to bigger things we need to accomplish (like establishing a firm basis of obedience).

 

[DarrinGreene]

Darrin,I like many here, use kibble, especially with young pups, same as you.
I feel a healing stick, in the wrong hands, without the proper foundations, can be devastating to a dog. I feel (and it's just my opinion) that it is possible for some followers of any program to misinterpret when to teach, when to deal with confusion and when to correct and to make the correction appropriate for the issue.

What I criticize is your stream of innuendos
“instead of being knocked out of it with a correction?”

“ I offered an alternative solution to "increase your obedience standard" aka correct him. "
Meaning all on here looking to increase an obedience standard are “aka correcting him.

“Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited“ “
and I could go on with examples from other threads.

Perhaps your actual experience was with a trainer that did these things?
I find it hard to believe that someone who knows the program (not sure if you mean a specific one or just in general) and how it works would say"Maybe I think the dog needs to learn to think then he's in that high state of drive instead of being knocked out of it with a correction? Maybe... just maybe I think that a field retriever needs to know how to make good decisions when he's high as a kite in the fourth with 4 fliers going off."

I respect opinions, I don't respect your innuendo laden attacks

Actually - if you read back through the responses to the thread, a heeling stick was suggested, choking the dog with an unbuckled collar as suggested, increasing overall obedience was suggested (that's usually corrective in here).

The comment about teaching a dog to think when he's high goes well beyond anything you'll see in any of those programs. Not that those authors don't understand it but I don't recall it being addressed anywhere. It came from a guy whose done basics for many FC retrievers and a bunch of good Schutzund dogs also. He was my mentor for a year or so 50 hours a week. Great dog man with a lifetime of experience. It refers to teaching the dog while he's in an excited state so his muscle memory doesn't erode.

Usually - when you're using a heeling stick, choke chain or other implement of discomfort, you are either knocking dog completely out of drive or his excitement down quite a bit. Then when the tools go away and the excitement rises the behavior starts to degrade. It's the same concept as the collar wise dog. He's contins himself with the collar on out of caution but when it comes off he goes buck wild. Eventually - through repetition - you get that same dog to behave with no tools but obviously, this one isn't here yet if we can't get the collar on him in the first place.

Since there's no tools on this dog (we're trying to put a collar on), it makes sense (to me) to rely on methods that he will do when he is bat **** crazy with excitement and I have no way of influencing his drive level.

Conditioning my open hand to mean "put your chin here and get rewarded" is a very simple thing to do that eliminates any problem with putting collars on and off, checking teeth etc. etc. It's really stupid easy. Just show him your hand wiith a few kibbles in the palm 50 or so times and he'll pretty much put his chin there (and give you control of his muzzle) every time.

I do a lot of what people would think is dumb with pups. Some if it is stuff people here would do and some isn't. Examples: Have them drag a leash in the house so they don't get excited about it when it comes out. Don't let them come and go from doors that don't have a secondary means of containment (if there's one available like a fenced back yard). Record and play back the door bell over and over while pup is eating. Teach them to reach for their collar instead of shy away. Actually pair praise to feeding so they know what it means.

I do a lot of what people here would call BS stuff because I'm counting on the dog's obedience being good but not great! The average person I'm teaching doesn't see their dog as a hobby like we all do here. They don't put in the time and I accepted a while back that I can't make them do it, so, it's a game of influence the things you can control and forget the ones you can't. People will do simple, easy stuff that doesn't require a ton of time but convincing them to spend 10 minutes 2 or 3 times a day with a dog in specific training isn't so easy.

Sorry about the attention getting writing style. It's not meant to be an attack on anyone. It's just how I write.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

I keep telling you guys that you will never get the last word (or 500-600 words) with Darrin. Hahalol.

 

[Tobias]

Using a heeling stick does not automatically mean 'beat the dog'.

 

[DarrinGreene]

I keep telling you guys that you will never get the last word (or 500-600 words) with Darrin. Hahalol.

Sorry if I think and type quickly enough to put out 600 words in 5 minutes Wayne LOL