[Steve Shaver]

I have never had a puppy come home that didn't whine or howl, or cry for extended periods when crated, or even when walking around with me... I guess by whining, you are meaning non stop all the time? 24/7 except when sleeping?
I believe the goal of Randy's book is to do just that and I think it probably will.

Well Duh.
Take a 7 week old puppy away from it's mother and littermates it's not going to like it and MOST of the time the way it is handled will determine whether it gets better or worse just like any other trait the pup is born with. That's why we have to train them to do what they do. So is marking and retrieving a genetic trait? Some do it better than others even within the same litter. So why do we pick a breeding we like or stay away from some that have traits we dont like? I have had 3 dogs that were vocal in one way or another, two from the same breeding Two were manageable one was not. When I say manageable I mean just that but not possible to completely get rid of.

 

[Tobias]

Well Duh.
Take a 7 week old puppy away from it's mother and littermates it's not going to like it and MOST of the time the way it is handled will determine whether it gets better or worse just like any other trait the pup is born with. That's why we have to train them to do what they do. So is marking and retrieving a genetic trait? Some do it better than others even within the same litter. So why do we pick a breeding we like or stay away from some that have traits we dont like? I have had 3 dogs that were vocal in one way or another, two from the same breeding Two were manageable one was not. When I say manageable I mean just that but not possible to completely get rid of.

I guess what I am wondering is if the dog that is the whiner is only whining when retrieving is in play.

 

[Pete]

Could it be some dogs are born with a frustrating or anxious nature, and barking,whining and other behaviors are a by product.
Pete

 

[Steve Shaver]

I guess what I am wondering is if the dog that is the whiner is only whining when retrieving is in play.

No

 

[Tobias]

Could it be some dogs are born with a frustrating or anxious nature, and barking,whining and other behaviors are a by product.
Pete

This is what I believe to be the case

 

[Steve Shaver]

Could it be some dogs are born with a frustrating or anxious nature, and barking,whining and other behaviors are a by product.
Pete

Sure that is quite possible but I have also seen dogs with a frustrating or anxious nature not make a peep. So do you think a frustrated, anxious nature is synonymous with noise?

 

[Steve Shaver]

I will go back the the discussion on cruciate problems being hereditary. I mentioned it was more structure than genetic. Dr Ed pointed out that structure is genetic, which is true. What came first the chicken or the egg?

 

[Jeri]

All the vocal dogs I have seen in the retriever world have been vocal due to frustration. Not being allowed to do what they want to do 'right now'. Restrained. Every. Single. One.
so --- what happened starting at 8 weeks, 10 weeks, 20 weeks -- when they started squeaking. started whining. started getting frustrated because someone was holding them and preventing them from chasing the bird or bumper?

Some lessons are learned the hard way…

In my case, I purchased a puppy from field trial lines. This was a first for me and from everything I heard and read, I was expecting a little Tasmanian Devil. “Hold on tight!” was also heard a lot based on his pedigree.

What arrived home at 8 weeks old was a little gentleman. I swear he was born knowing what “leave it” means. And he didn’t like food. A Labrador that doesn’t like food??? How the heck am I supposed to train this puppy? Does he even have enough energy to retrieve? I was also being told to encourage DRIVE and that obedience at an early age would only decrease drive. <smacks head>

I probably panicked a bit and did whatever I could to encourage drive. I’m sure my boy’s noise at the line is 100% my fault. Stupid. Amateur. Ignorance. Supporting this notion is the fact that he is not vocal anywhere else. He is a sensitive, quiet boy and has been a pure pleasure to work with.

Drive? Turns out I didn’t need to worry. I should have trusted his breeding. We RJAMed our first ever (1st – as in this was the 1st FT I have ever been to!) Derby at 16 months and would have placed higher if not for the noise at the line (according to the judge). I’m very proud of this. 😊

Trust me. I have learned my lesson. But now I need to correct my huge mistake...

Randy! I need your book!

 

[Pete]

Sure that is quite possible but I have also seen dogs with a frustrating or anxious nature not make a peep. So do you think a frustrated, anxious nature is synonymous with noise?

I think it can be. With bite dogs they frustrate them to make them bark. I think barking ,whining or anything else is just a by product of their frustrative and or anxious nature. Some dogs may dig, nip, tear the house up what ever else. Lot's of trial and HT dogs are anxious but quiet a few are noisey to different degree's. Anxious and frustration are obvious states of mind. It could be severity of the anxiousness, I don't know, just thinking out loud. So No Steve anxious and frustration can manifest in other behaviors or postures which doesn't include barking or whining. I have no idea if barking and whining have a gene or if it is enviromental or both. I would say most dogs bark at one time or another, may be even besenji's and barking is part of being a dog and sometimes certain things make dogs bark. That all I know about it. So is barking genetic since most dogs bark, or is there an outside soarce causing it. Is your head spinning yet
Pete

 

[Pete]

I will go back the the discussion on cruciate problems being hereditary. I mentioned it was more structure than genetic. Dr Ed pointed out that structure is genetic, which is true. What came first the chicken or the egg?

God say's the chicken Genesis 1 :21 I tend to believe God rather than man.
Pete

 

[J. Marti]

If certain behavioral traits are NOT genetic, why have breeds? Wouldn't a Pekingnese be just as likely to win the Retriever national open championship as a Labrador? (Discuss amongst yourselves --I have already chosen my answer ).

But I am enjoying that Tobias is saying maybe noise is a result of early puppy training and there are no genetically noisy Labradors. Are certain noisy Labradors created because their owners follow a certain training program to the T and do not deviate from that program no matter what behavior the puppy they are training exhibits? I have no clue.

I believe certain behavioral traits are inherited in my breed, but is it all in how I raised my puppies? I don't think so but I don't know for certain. However, I still believe genetics are involved in many behaviors we desire or don't desire in our retriever hunting/test/trial dogs.

 

[Randy Bohn]

Why would this site be any different than any other part of society? People have the right to a difference of opinion. I have seen many ads removed from the general forum and placed in the appropriate classified section, and I do see this as advertising. There is no discussion of the subject just a teaser of a product that I assume you intend to sell. I think it is a great topic for discussion. Using discussion to promote your product would be a better way to introduce it rather than the teaser your posted.

I do disagree with the theory of your title. If dogs didnt have faults this thread would not exist. I do agree that a lot of faults can be worsened by the improper handling of the subject, with the proper handling it can be improved as well. Actually I am helping you with your product by simply drawing more attention to it. It is not my attention to degrade your product. It could be very useful and help a lot of people but you have been absent from this forum for a loooong time and now you pop up with nothing to ad but a teaser for a product.

wondering how many dogs you have rehabbed to competition again or hunting that use to be noisy ?

 

[Randy Bohn]

I respectfully disagree. I am on my 3rd lab and the first two hardly whined at all. My current girl was whining from the day I brought her home and I knew it was going to be a problem. I tried to control it but admittedly I didn’t know exactly how to do it. I read posts and different articles but it has been a challenge. I hope this book will help people that have a noisy dog.

My opinion is it was from what happened at the breeder or it is a trait in the dog. I lean towards being a trait in the dog. However I do agree that owners can make a dog noisy by their actions but that is not my experience with my current dog.

I've had a bunch of noisy dogs in for rehab...id lean towards handler induced issues not genetics...i know one line out there for sure that had genetic noise issues

 

[Randy Bohn]

Keep us up to date on when it becomes available. I will buy on. Always open to new ideas.

there are things done in the book not for the regular dogs...designed for bad dogs is what the book is geared towards

 

[Randy Bohn]

All the vocal dogs I have seen in the retriever world have been vocal due to frustration. Not being allowed to do what they want to do 'right now'. Restrained. Every. Single. One.
so --- what happened starting at 8 weeks, 10 weeks, 20 weeks -- when they started squeaking. started whining. started getting frustrated because someone was holding them and preventing them from chasing the bird or bumper?

EXACTLY!!

 

[Randy Bohn]

Some lessons are learned the hard way…

In my case, I purchased a puppy from field trial lines. This was a first for me and from everything I heard and read, I was expecting a little Tasmanian Devil. “Hold on tight!” was also heard a lot based on his pedigree.

What arrived home at 8 weeks old was a little gentleman. I swear he was born knowing what “leave it” means. And he didn’t like food. A Labrador that doesn’t like food??? How the heck am I supposed to train this puppy? Does he even have enough energy to retrieve? I was also being told to encourage DRIVE and that obedience at an early age would only decrease drive. <smacks head>

I probably panicked a bit and did whatever I could to encourage drive. I’m sure my boy’s noise at the line is 100% my fault. Stupid. Amateur. Ignorance. Supporting this notion is the fact that he is not vocal anywhere else. He is a sensitive, quiet boy and has been a pure pleasure to work with.

Drive? Turns out I didn’t need to worry. I should have trusted his breeding. We RJAMed our first ever (1st – as in this was the 1st FT I have ever been to!) Derby at 16 months and would have placed higher if not for the noise at the line (according to the judge). I’m very proud of this. 😊

Trust me. I have learned my lesson. But now I need to correct my huge mistake...

Randy! I need your book!

go back to obedience...it works!

 

[Steve Shaver]

I think it can be. With bite dogs they frustrate them to make them bark. I think barking ,whining or anything else is just a by product of their frustrative and or anxious nature. Some dogs may dig, nip, tear the house up what ever else. Lot's of trial and HT dogs are anxious but quiet a few are noisey to different degree's. Anxious and frustration are obvious states of mind. It could be severity of the anxiousness, I don't know, just thinking out loud. So No Steve anxious and frustration can manifest in other behaviors or postures which doesn't include barking or whining. I have no idea if barking and whining have a gene or if it is enviromental or both. I would say most dogs bark at one time or another, may be even besenji's and barking is part of being a dog and sometimes certain things make dogs bark. That all I know about it. So is barking genetic since most dogs bark, or is there an outside soarce causing it. Is your head spinning yet
Pete

Ok well I well I will back track on my statement. Quite possibly noise is a by product of frustration and anxiety but I tend to tie them together. My noisey dogs have had 0 other issues tied to frustration or anxiety so I tend to relate the them. I would not call them frustrated, anxious, probably. I still believe that noise will come out of certain lines whether it is a by product or not.

God say's the chicken Genesis 1 :21 I tend to believe God rather than man.
Pete

So who did God tell that to?? A man I would guess. Wish God would speak to me once in awhile, I have lots of questions.

 

[Steve Shaver]

wondering how many dogs you have rehabbed to competition again or hunting that use to be noisy ?

Well I dont claim to be the noise guru that you do nor do I want to be. I have had 3 personal dogs that had vocal issues. My current 10 yr old which went away completely ( except in the truck when I get another dog out) and current 6 yr old that is just manageable on line but quiet in the truck. She has an open win and placements. In the past 15 + years I have worked with approx. 200 dogs and only my 3 have had any noise issues. The two mentioned were pretty much fixed. The first one was out of Candlewoods Man In Black born in 2010. She was a very talented dog but the noise would not go away and I dont mean just a little noise, she would scream as the birds went down. Never dealt with noise till then and she was incurable in my opinion. I talked with you on her and tried everything you suggested, sent you videos from training and nothing worked. She was silent when training and all other times except at an actual trial. When I sent you video of my training routine you had no answer and quit communicating.

I've had a bunch of noisy dogs in for rehab...id lean towards handler induced issues not genetics...i know one line out there for sure that had genetic noise issues

Care to elaborate on the line that you would consider had genetic noise issues?

 

[Steve Shaver]

go back to obedience...it works!

I have always put a lot of emphasis on obedience but that didnt stop my noise issues. In fact my current 6 yr old got more anxious when demanding OB when approaching the line. I still practice OB but not when approaching the line. I pretty much let her dictate the pace going to the mat and that improved her line manners a lot. She now makes very little noise and sometimes none at all.

 

[bjoiner]

there are things done in the book not for the regular dogs...designed for bad dogs is what the book is geared towards

Knowing new ways to deal with issues is never a bad thing.