[Chris Atkinson]

It's hard to drive a Bus or a car from the back seat. A person whose opinion you would respect stated that you have to be close to the dog to pull, pulling is much harder from the back seat for most of us.

Thanks Doc. The back seat is exactly how I'd feel.

The dogs and handler in Bon's "set 2" of pictures shows what appears to me to be a handler and two different dogs who are accustomed-to and comfortable with that configuration. As such, it probably works for them.

I personally feel glad that my dog is comfortable with my knee at his shoulder and is not sneaking a step or two ahead just to keep out in front of me. For me personally, it feels, as KJR mentioned, like very subtle movements - mostly with my outside leg, can have pretty dramatic impact on my dog's attention, alignment and focus - when we are dogshoulder-handlerknee aligned.

Earlier, someone mentioned the idea of getting the dog lined up, then "stepping back" once he's lined up. I remember doing this exact thing at a workshop. The guy who has won more trials than I ever will said "You had him lined up perfectly! Why did you then move back and pull him off???! " Actually, that very mark is my avatar picture.

Thanks to all of you for your feedback!

 

[thunderdog]

I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog.

 

[Pete]

I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog

I think you ment,,,it makes it easier for you to make fine corrections without much fuss.

If I ran a dog from that high up i'd never get him to settle in and lock. It would respond to every breath I take, and more than likely any arm movement what so ever would change its positioning.

So that style could be said to be counter to the way I train. Thats all it is.style.
I like how Don Romeins position,,,,it seems more comfortable to me.

I just can't see a right or wrong way of doing this. As long as the dog responds to you than thats the right way.

I think people fight to try to emmulate icons. I think we should do whats comfortable for us.

If we can't make it work that way or if it affects something down the road,,,,then change.. my 02%

Pete

 

[Chris Atkinson]

I think you ment,,,it makes it easier for you to make fine corrections without much fuss.

If I ran a dog from that high up i'd never get him to settle in and lock. It would respond to every breath I take, and more than likely any arm movement what so ever would change its positioning.

So that style could be said to be counter to the way I train. Thats all it is.style.
I like how Don Romeins position,,,,it seems more comfortable to me.

I just can't see a right or wrong way of doing this. As long as the dog responds to you than thats the right way.

I think people fight to try to emmulate icons. I think we should do whats comfortable for us.

If we can't make it work that way or if it affects something down the road,,,,then change.. my 02%

Pete

Two percent? haha... I like it!

Hey, look what a little bird sent me via email.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjFLgARvx-w

I had never seen this video clip before a moment ago. For me, this makes very good sense. I like it.

Chris

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Can't get the whole video to load but you should watch the dog not the mark.

/Paul

 

[JusticeDog]

On the "no hand send" for the retired memory birds: I used to "always" put a hand down for all memory birds with Bus. I stopped this when coached to avoid it in Summer of 2009 at a workshop in Montello.

We were urged to not use a hand on memory birds, in general, unless it was to drive the dog deep. In both of the retired marks we ran, they were plopping right out in a "want to go to" spot (in my opinion). I did not want to drive the dog deep, due to the location of the marks and the fact that there were roads behind the marks. (and no, there is no fence between the mark and that busy road - to answer someone who mentioned that)

Great analysis of the hand down vs. no hand down debate. (The other debate that handlers always seem to have his "do I put the dog on my right, or on my left?"). I'll give you another scenario to think about.

I was once running an AA stake, and there was an under the arc bird that was "butt-pucker tight" (for the handler and the dog) under the arc - moderate length. Dogs were avoiding going under the arc like the plague. This was the 4th series so it was a tad important. Dogs were going behind the gun, and heading out to no mans land to the left. Dogs were doing far right, and getting pushed so long their either went into another no mans land or to the right hand long gun. (Then try to get the dog back to that mark - no way!). So, on that particular mark, I did put my hand down, to show the dog it was important, but, I gave it a moderate send instead of a loud send. It worked. That was my attainment for the day....

 

[FOM]

Okay, not that I have much room to talk, but my Butthead has been a work in progress....not only him, but myself, too.

I have learned I like to be up on him, not back by the hip. This is not how we started out together and he was definitely driving the bus when I was back by his hip. Also from a "flow" perspective when setting up for the marks and while they are being thrown, I find my self more comfortable being up on his shoulder and my movements to help move him from gun to gun is smoother for both of us - i send less mixed signals.

Of course I do manage to screw it up from time to time but we are a work in progress.

Also I have found out I can line him up easier on blinds by being up by his shoulder...

FOM

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Great analysis of the hand down vs. no hand down debate. (The other debate that handlers always seem to have his "do I put the dog on my right, or on my left?"). I'll give you another scenario to think about.

I was once running an AA stake, and there was an under the arc bird that was "butt-pucker tight" (for the handler and the dog) under the arc - moderate length. Dogs were avoiding going under the arc like the plague. This was the 4th series so it was a tad important. Dogs were going behind the gun, and heading out to no mans land to the left. Dogs were doing far right, and getting pushed so long their either went into another no mans land or to the right hand long gun. (Then try to get the dog back to that mark - no way!). So, on that particular mark, I did put my hand down, to show the dog it was important, but, I gave it a moderate send instead of a loud send. It worked. That was my attainment for the day....

What cool timing. I just....JUST got off the phone with a FT friend who painted the same sort of picture.

To paraphrase what I was just told, (this stuff fascinates me) my source said he/she will use the hand on memory birds: 1) To Drive the dog "deep" on a punch bird. 2) To unconfuse a dog who seems to have trouble locking in, focusing, or remembering the memory bird. 3) To emphatically show the dog the right way to go, when the conditions show a strong tendency for previous dogs' ( or the obvious intentions of the dog at your side ) to go other than the "right" way.

Know what...I'm glad I posted the videos!

Thanks! Chris

 

[Howard N]

3) To emphatically show the dog the right way to go, when the conditions show a strong tendency for previous dogs' ( or the obvious intentions of the dog at your side ) to go other than the "right" way.

OK Chris, short retired but the dogs want to go left of some obstacle. Dogs that went left haven't been successful. Your dog wants to line up left. The hand drives them deep but emphasizes the right line. Whatcha do, hand or no hand?



In the past, I have used my hand to line them and then taken it away and stood up, trying not to loom over them which seems to pressure them driving them deep, waited them out making sure they're committed to the line and then send them soft. Does work ......... Sometimes

 

[Pete]

Two percent? haha... I like it!

Hey, look what a little bird sent me via email.

Thanks Chris
I liked the video,,,It must be nice to have acess to little birdies,,,,, who am I to argue with an Icon in the retriever sports.



I do have to ask though
Has anyone ever won an open with the dog in the butt/heel of foot position.?
\
Just a thought to throw in to the mix
Handling is Communication ,,,, not just when you choose to blow a whistle or not to..
A dog doesn't have to see your hand over his head to know its there.
Very interesting topic.






I put the % thingy to bring a smile,,I'm smiling that you noticed it. I tried to kill 2 birds with 1 symbol.


Pete

 

[EdA]

I do have to ask though
Has anyone ever won an open with the dog in the butt/heel of foot position.?

I could name several to whom "heel" was an unknown position much less sitting but think how much better they might have been

 

[JusticeDog]

OK Chris, short retired but the dogs want to go left of some obstacle. Dogs that went left haven't been successful. Your dog wants to line up left. The hand drives them deep but emphasizes the right line. Whatcha do, hand or no hand?



In the past, I have used my hand to line them and then taken it away and stood up, trying not to loom over them which seems to pressure them driving them deep, waited them out making sure they're committed to the line and then send them soft. Does work ......... Sometimes

I wait for the ear flick........ when I get the ear flick, I've got it... (usually.... ). It means "I've heard you... now, just let me go..."

What is your "tell" sign on the committment Howard?

 

[Howard N]

I don't have anything Susan. Or when I have, they've all done something I didn't expect. I used to wait for the lean in but that doesn't work. Now I wait, then wait some more then put my hand in and sent on the long ones. Short ones I stand back and watch and wait until I'm sure.

I've blown it a lot too.

 

[Rnd]

This is a GREAT thread!!! Trials are won and lost in that 3'X3' area. It's great to have folks with history and experience "discuss" the various nuances. This use to take years to learn/understand now in a few days the average Joe has a wealth of information.... Being able to apply it at the line under pressure .....Priceless

 

[Vicky Trainor]

Rosie looks like she is having such a grand time.....just look at that tail wagging!! Keep up on her training, Chris I think you'll learn lots in training her

 

[Erik Nilsson]

Thanks for sharing Chris

 

[duckkiller]

What kind of hunting is the trainer and the dog in the video trying to simulate? I have hunted all my life and have yet to have a that scenario pop up.

 

[Chris Atkinson]

What kind of hunting is the trainer and the dog in the video trying to simulate? I have hunted all my life and have yet to have a that scenario pop up.

Hi Captain Mike,

You got me there. Thanks for watching the videos.

I appreciated your email back in January. I have bumped you a copy of that with an updated reply.

Have fun with RTF and your dogs.

I wrote in one of the responses in this thread that I had two goals in this session that was videotaped (with my lab): work on head swinging, and work on retired guns. I was not in any way trying to simulate any kind of hunt. I was retriever training.

With my other dog, my goal was to simply go get Rosie out of the truck and have some fun since I had a willing gunner out there to throw some marks. Again, no hunting scenario claimed, nor implied. Just dog training...even with a pit! This was Rosie's second time ever picking up marks thrown by an assistant. It was Rosie's FIRST session working on steadiness....ever.

Do you run any hunt tests or field trials? Do you intend to?

Sincerely, Chris

P.S. that coat in my avitar picture...it's for dog training. When I hunt, I don't wear it. I do lots of things differently when I hunt than when I train.

 

[Marvin S]

What kind of hunting is the trainer and the dog in the video trying to simulate? I have hunted all my life and have yet to have a that scenario pop up.

You don't state your age so what folows is relative - there is a saying in the sport - I've never had my dog do that - followed by - well you won't be able to say that next time -

Stick around long enough you may get a .

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Weather your high up on a dog or behind him,,,,as long as you are consistant at what your doing,,,the dog will figure it out. Each position has there advantages.
I have no idea how people line /aim their dog looking straight down on it.

But then many don't understand how someone can easily move a dog from behind.


Chris
What made Buses ears drop back,,,did you tell him to sit ,,,,?
I thought you looked way better than what I would look like. I was impressed that you can stand up so quickly after squatting.

Pete

Pete, I watched the video for Bus' ears and saw lots of ear movement on each retrieve setup. What is the timestamp that you're asking about? Also, you may be able to turn up your volume and actually hear whatever he heard.

I'm glad you asked this as I was not paying nearly as much attention to his head and ear position as I did as a result of this question.

Chris