[22899]

Bruce!

HUUUUUUUUUUH????

Quote:
who is trying to ascertain the meaning of Mark vs Blind that his 'ummm K-9 companion may or may not have seen in a simmulated representation of duplicitious testing sceanarios ...


What the He!!,, Soma that Rice go up yer nose???


Gooser (You were great in that movie by the way!!)

 

[bruce]

ok....ok....maybe a little too much MSG in the rice...

What I meant to say [especially in your case using back on both marks and blinds] was line 'em up and send em. Might want to have the whistle in your mouth and a lung or two full of air just in case ...

In my humble and maybe feeblke opinion a dog can not mark wht it can not see... if they won't swing 270 degrees on the bucket you may be in trouble with some judges who think the oveer the sholder going away hail mary shot is part of "a normal days hunt' ...

I am going back to my long winters nap ... enjoy

 

[KwickLabs]

I have one last question......If the words "That's a blind!" fly out of your mouth in a swamp and there is no judge around to hear it.......are you still wrong?

 

[22899]

:shock::shock::shock:

UH OH!!

Gooser


Will UB please answer the question.

What Fundamentals or basics do you use in training to teach a dog to pick up a mark it didnt see??

Gooser

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

:shock::shock::shock:

UH OH!!

Gooser


Will UB please answer the question.

What Fundamentals or basics do you use in training to teach a dog to pick up a mark it didnt see??

Gooser

Well it typically starts with a "no here"

/paul

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

:shock:

What Fundamentals or basics do you use in training to teach a dog to pick up a mark it didnt see??

Gooser

can't look at it like that Gooser. Cant go and train one morning and say "I'm going to work on marks my dog didn't see". But you can take a step back and say " Why did my dog not see that mark?" And then work on that. In your "hypothetical" hunting situation an indented triple with an out of order flier would almost duplicate it. But not fix it. But in a training situation you could "no" the dog off one bird and work on another. Because in the story the dog locked on the close bird and would not turn for the lucky shot. Could that be just because the dog knows you well and you never make that shot?
but.............
on the other hand, one day when I was tossing birds I was the long dead bird thrower, and I was LOOOOONG like 200+. I was instructed to place my duck at the target area and when it was my turn to throw (I was 2nd of a bitchen triple) I was to shoot the gun and throw will all the motion I could muster, nothing. I guess it was to simulate those far out ducks that cannot be seen in the air but the motion of the bird boy can be? I just did as told. I was amazed at how the dog zipped out and found the bird from a throw that wasn't thrown. I guess you could do that as well.
Ken Bora

 

[kjrice]

Well it typically starts with a "no here"

/paul

And then you will be dismissed from the hunting blind for saying "no". :twisted:

 

[Uncle Bill]

:shock::shock::shock:

UH OH!!

Gooser


Will UB please answer the question.

What Fundamentals or basics do you use in training to teach a dog to pick up a mark it didnt see??

Gooser

Sorry for being tardy to your 'class'.

It's called "lining"...something taught to trialing dogs, but seldom to hunt test dogs, and never to hunting dogs.

It requires a great deal of trust by the dog...knowing you are sending it for a bird that will become it's reward for going.

Lots of WW and other lining drills are needed to teach that 'trust'. Plus, many training days devoted to running looooooonnnng blinds, which conditions the dog to look to the horizon for a target, and teaches it to keep going unless it hears a whistle, or steps on the bird.

UB

 

[Uncle Bill]

So what gives??? I rustle out of bed at 10 AM so I can answer your question, and sit all day waiting for a response...and get nothing???

Is it something I said? Am I on the wrong page? Or did Mr. Carpenter read what you said about him on the "fess-up" thread, and he's got you in a step-over toe hold?

Please don't tell me you P O'd the lovely Lady Di, and she took away your keyboard priviledges...again. I told you not to tell me that!

UB

 

[22899]

Sorry for being tardy to your 'class'.


HAHA!!! You're such an ARSE!!!

Oh And Paul I got one of those Dunce stamps on my forhead fer sayin "no" at a test!




It's called "lining"...something taught to trialing dogs, but seldom to hunt test dogs, and never to hunting dogs.

It requires a great deal of trust by the dog...knowing you are sending it for a bird that will become it's reward for going.

Lots of WW and other lining drills are needed to teach that 'trust'. Plus, many training days devoted to running looooooonnnng blinds, which conditions the dog to look to the horizon for a target, and teaches it to keep going unless it hears a whistle, or steps on the bird.



Ok ! from what Bill posted above,, The way you train a dog to retrieve one of them "marks",that the dog doesnt see,, is by using the same tools you have taught the dog to develop its blind running skills.

Maybe just starting with the back pile in the "T". you teach to dog to go to that VISIBLE pile, slowly advancing to where you can set up the "T" without identifying them first. The dog learns to go as sent.
You progress through the usual steps, till your running pattern blinds,, and then eventually Cold blinds.
The dog has developed this trust in you that there will be a bird where you send it.

Now at a test, your dog only sees 2 of the 3 marks it was presented.You are absolutly sure the dog didnt see the long center bird---Never looked in the direction.
You send it for the last bird down, it retrieves this beautifully-- steps on the mark. The dog comes back, and automatically lines itself up with the first bird thrown --same thing pins the bird.

Now when the dog comes back it doesnt line itself up for the center bird. You have ti fight the dog to get it to heel as you face the center bird. Finally the dog heels, and you line the dog by dropping your hand, and send the dog. This dog takes the line perfectly, and retrieves the bird.

Didnt you just HANDLE your dog TO the area of fall??


I look at it this way!

The first two MARKS the dog lined itself up on. I did nothing other than face the mark. The dog went TO the AOF on its own, and found the bird. Came back, LINED ITSELF UP ON THE NEXT ONE and did the same thing Perfect retrieve.

The LAST bird (Center) I had to fight to get the dog to heel with me and face that bird.(Did not line itself up) I POINTED out the AOF by dropping my hand and LINING the dog. The dog got lucky, or good, and ran a perfectly straight line and caught sent of the bird along that path, and made the retrieve. I Think I HANDLED TO the AOF and I should not be awarded a passing grade for the dogs ablity to mark! Period.

The dog is not to blame!! Just didnt see the mark!! The mark was a well presented bird--no fault of the test. Dog just had a brain fart and missed it. I'm done for the day--- Move on!!!!

I belive the dog thinksconfused it lined a blind! This is why I keep sayin if the DOG didnt see a mark,, the DOG thinks its a blind. I can call it a mark,(which it is),, along with Uncle Bill,(i AGREE WITH HIM) and that Bruce (rice eatin) Almighty dude! buuuuut!!! THE DOG DONT THINK ITS A MARK,, CAUSE IT DID NOT perform THE ACT OF marking!!!

IF MARKING IS OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE,, Why do some handlers (and some VENUES) belive in leiniancy(sic)

I have been to tests and seen dogs that handle on all three marks of a triple, and get the same ribbon that the dog that perty much ran on auto pilot and MARKED!!

Gooser-----have at me!

 

[22899]

Bill

New job keeps me "chained" all day!!

Gooser

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Ok, so here's a situation for ya. I judged a master 4 years ago a wide open triple with a walkup. The handler was called to the line and the dog came out of the blind at a dead run, left him behind. when he crossed the a magic marker we signled for the birds and before the first bird could go off the dog the handled yelled sit, and the dog turned around facing him, layed down and stuck his nose on the ground. He never took his eyes off the handler and the marks went down behind him. I released the dog, the handler lined the dog up for each bird and the dog pinned them. Well he had a hunt on the last bird. So you tell me, did the dog "mark" the birds or what? Also, feel free to mention how you would score that?

/Paul

 

[JeffLusk]

Ok, so here's a situation for ya. I judged a master 4 years ago a wide open triple with a walkup. The handler was called to the line and the dog came out of the blind at a dead run, left him behind. when he crossed the a magic marker we signled for the birds and before the first bird could go off the dog the handled yelled sit, and the dog turned around facing him, layed down and stuck his nose on the ground. He never took his eyes off the handler and the marks went down behind him. I released the dog, the handler lined the dog up for each bird and the dog pinned them. Well he had a hunt on the last bird. So you tell me, did the dog "mark" the birds or what? Also, feel free to mention how you would score that?

/Paul

hey we claim to have eyes in the back of our head, why can't they??

 

[Howard N]

So you tell me, did the dog "mark" the birds or what? Also, feel free to mention how you would score that?

I'd think marking was an or what that day. I couldn't zero the dog in either trainability or marking.

Ya think that dog may have done a test or two before?

 

[camhuff]

More ducks than I've killed this year. DEAD BIRD BAAAACCCKKK!!!!!!!!

 

[Uncle Bill]

Sorry for being tardy to your 'class'.


HAHA!!! You're such an ARSE!!!

Oh And Paul I got one of those Dunce stamps on my forhead fer sayin "no" at a test!




It's called "lining"...something taught to trialing dogs, but seldom to hunt test dogs, and never to hunting dogs.

It requires a great deal of trust by the dog...knowing you are sending it for a bird that will become it's reward for going.

Lots of WW and other lining drills are needed to teach that 'trust'. Plus, many training days devoted to running looooooonnnng blinds, which conditions the dog to look to the horizon for a target, and teaches it to keep going unless it hears a whistle, or steps on the bird.



Ok ! from what Bill posted above,, The way you train a dog to retrieve one of them "marks",that the dog doesnt see,, is by using the same tools you have taught the dog to develop its blind running skills.

Maybe just starting with the back pile in the "T". you teach to dog to go to that VISIBLE pile, slowly advancing to where you can set up the "T" without identifying them first. The dog learns to go as sent.
You progress through the usual steps, till your running pattern blinds,, and then eventually Cold blinds.
The dog has developed this trust in you that there will be a bird where you send it.

Now at a test, your dog only sees 2 of the 3 marks it was presented.You are absolutly sure the dog didnt see the long center bird---Never looked in the direction.
You send it for the last bird down, it retrieves this beautifully-- steps on the mark. The dog comes back, and automatically lines itself up with the first bird thrown --same thing pins the bird.

Now when the dog comes back it doesnt line itself up for the center bird. You have ti fight the dog to get it to heel as you face the center bird. Finally the dog heels, and you line the dog by dropping your hand, and send the dog. This dog takes the line perfectly, and retrieves the bird.

Didnt you just HANDLE your dog TO the area of fall??


I look at it this way!

The first two MARKS the dog lined itself up on. I did nothing other than face the mark. The dog went TO the AOF on its own, and found the bird. Came back, LINED ITSELF UP ON THE NEXT ONE and did the same thing Perfect retrieve.

The LAST bird (Center) I had to fight to get the dog to heel with me and face that bird.(Did not line itself up) I POINTED out the AOF by dropping my hand and LINING the dog. The dog got lucky, or good, and ran a perfectly straight line and caught sent of the bird along that path, and made the retrieve. I Think I HANDLED TO the AOF and I should not be awarded a passing grade for the dogs ablity to mark! Period.

The dog is not to blame!! Just didnt see the mark!! The mark was a well presented bird--no fault of the test. Dog just had a brain fart and missed it. I'm done for the day--- Move on!!!!

I belive the dog thinksconfused it lined a blind! This is why I keep sayin if the DOG didnt see a mark,, the DOG thinks its a blind. I can call it a mark,(which it is),, along with Uncle Bill,(i AGREE WITH HIM) and that Bruce (rice eatin) Almighty dude! buuuuut!!! THE DOG DONT THINK ITS A MARK,, CAUSE IT DID NOT perform THE ACT OF marking!!!

IF MARKING IS OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE,, Why do some handlers (and some VENUES) belive in leiniancy(sic)

I have been to tests and seen dogs that handle on all three marks of a triple, and get the same ribbon that the dog that perty much ran on auto pilot and MARKED!!

Gooser-----have at me!

Man-O-Man, where is Ed when we need him??? I'm loading up about 50 gallons of whupass and heading yer way MG.

Let's say the dog was presented with a diversion that you didn't want picked up at that time, so you no'd the dog off, moved it around to the mark you wanted picked up, DROPPING YOUR HAND and sent it. The dog lines the bird, and now as a judge you want me to fail it for NOT MARKING???

Do you understand the hole you as a judge of this scenario are digging yourself into? While you are sure the dog didn't mark the bird down, I,as a judge may figure there might have been a 'flashmark', and all the dog needed for assurance was a little help from its' handler.

Show me where using your hand to send the dog is a fault. Many handlers do that for every send, not just blinds. Watch a FT sometime and see how the dog is finitely manipulated on the line when being sent for a mark; Only OBVIOUS lining is considered a fault.

I suspect I'm not getting through with this explanation, but time and experience will give you more to draw from. I'm serious when I suggest you attend a Field Trial some time, and watch how that game is played. You will see far more perfection in aligning a dog than you'll ever get in a hunt test.

Let me also suggest you attend the next session of a seat-belt and air-bag testing center. As they say..."A man can learn a lot from a dummy."

UB...wondering if the Gooser might know if 'Anal Retentive' is hyphenated?

 

[22899]

Quote!

Let me also suggest you attend the next session of a seat-belt and air-bag testing center. As they say..."A man can learn a lot from a dummy."


DANG!!!!


Ok!! So you guys that judge, will let the Handler obviously point the AOF to the dog,, send him, and if the dog gets the retrieve,, you cant with good concencious FAIL the dog!!-----I AGREE!!! I think it horse apples,, But I agree.

So we all agree that this is acceptable. So, tell me then why we spend quite a bit of time at training , throwin marks for the dog to see. It seems to me time would be better spent teachin a dog PERFECT line mannners, teaching the push- pull down to perfection, and making sure the dog was really taking and keeping excellent lines. Who cares if the dog marks, If it just goes straight, and gets top the Aof, and I handle,, then I'm gonna get another ribbon to hang on the Jackalope rack! I guess the people in the gallery that see a dog that CAN mark will just be given the option to applaud lowder!!

I have seen dogs in training that perty much run on auto pilot when shown marks. They line themselves up, and retrieve in order,, perty much automatically.

IF,,, IF a dog does have a stumble,, then very rarely will they handle. They will get help from the guns,, and move on to the next set-up,, but they NEVER handle on marks in training! NEVER

So Am I correct to assume that in training we OVER train to expectations the we may never expect to enforce in Hunting or TESTING?? Seems to me we all just need a GREAT blind runnin dog!-- We can FAKE the rest!!



Gooser

 

[thelabguy]

Ok!! So you guys that judge, will let the Handler obviously point the AOF to the dog,, send him, and if the dog gets the retrieve,, you cant with good concencious FAIL the dog!!-----I AGREE!!! I think it horse apples,, But I agree.

So we all agree that this is acceptable.

Chapter 4 Section 6: Once all marks are down and the handler/dog has been released by the judges, a handler may give the dog a line in the direction of any or all falls, provided that such lining is accomplished briskly and precisely. Conspicuously intensive lining suggests a weak marking ability and the dog must be scored low in Marking (emph mine). "Low" doesn't necessarily mean "zero", but it also doesn't necessarily mean "passing".

If it just goes straight, and gets to the Aof, and I handle, then I'm gonna get another ribbon to hang on the Jackalope rack!

Not necessarily. Handling in the AOF is better than handling to the AOF, but doing it on every mark probably won't get you scores high enough to get that ribbon. With that handling, you're aiding the dog. Some of that's ok, but too much is not. Remember, #13 on the list of SERIOUS FAULTS is "Failure to find a bird – which the dog should have found", and Chapter 5 Section 4 #5 and Section 5 #8 say "Dogs may be handled on marks, but excessive handling requires a lower score in Perseverance and/or marking" and "A dog that goes to the area of the fall and finds the bird unaided must be scored appreciably higher than a dog that must be handled to a bird." The lower score you get in 'Perseverance and/or marking' may drag you down below passing. It's a judgement call.

Kevin

 

[Uncle Bill]

Kevin,

Those are AKC regs. HRC allows for handling 'in' the area of the fall AFTER the dog has reached said AOF AND established a hunt, at no penalty. Even saw a Grand test that allowed a callback after the GRHRCH dog had handled on all three marks in a land series. Go figure...but hey! I didn't write the HRC rules, only judge by them.

As for the MG...

"So we all agree that this is acceptable. So, tell me then why we spend quite a bit of time at training , throwin marks for the dog to see. It seems to me time would be better spent teachin a dog PERFECT line mannners, teaching the push- pull down to perfection, and making sure the dog was really taking and keeping excellent lines. Who cares if the dog marks, If it just goes straight, and gets top the Aof, and I handle,, then I'm gonna get another ribbon to hang on the Jackalope rack! I guess the people in the gallery that see a dog that CAN mark will just be given the option to applaud lowder!!"

Voila! Attend a few trials as I suggest, and you'll see dogs that have been trained to the degree that allows for them to run those kind of lines...IN ADDITION to being pretty damned fine marking animals.

But those that play that game are going to train for the time their dog didn't see that mark, or may be fuzzy in the location, and will help it with the line to take. They of course don't have the option of a free handle like HRC, or a minimal markdown as in AKC hunt tests. But they hope the dog will take a straight enough line that it will get in the scent cone and find the bird without handling.


When it comes to training, this statement is NOT correct...

"IF,,, IF a dog does have a stumble,, They will get help from the guns,, and move on to the next set-up,, but they NEVER handle on marks in training! NEVER "

THIS is more correct...


"IF,,, IF a dog does have a stumble,, then very rarely will they handle."

I suspect you are using the folks you have trained with as your template for these statements. Not saying you are a product of the lame leading the blind, but I surmise you could use some additional mentoring.

When you claim dogs thrown marks and are never handled are you sure these aren't just young dogs needing help and haven't yet been taught to handle? I believe you'll find many trainers...pro and amatuer...will handle on marks in their training while teaching a concept etc. But this is usually reserved for dogs that are well established in their knowledge and have been taught for some time.

Ex: What is gained if the concept is to teach the dog to NOT run behind the thrower, if the birdboy has to help the dog find the bird? It's a handling situation, and after several corrections...initially by attrition, and eventually with collar corrections...the handler hopes the dog will 'remember' those lessons and start running the test properly.

I realize these concepts are not a concern for a hunt tester, and totally laughable for the average hunter, but even at the Finished and Master levels of dog training, you'll find many trainers that will handle on marks during training.

How else would you teach a dog to swim past a point in a slough, to the bird on the opposite shore, without handling? It won't get done by having the birdboy waving the duck at the dog on the far shore, after the dog has gotten into trouble by landing on the point and started hunting all the strong scents located there.

During the tennis shoe era, we would have a helper haze the dog off, or start spooking it before it got to that point. Thankfully with the advent of electronics, that practice left with the buggy whip that was frequently used. My dog Clyde was hazed so often by my friend Tom during various concept training sessions, that Tom couldn't get near Clyde in his kennel without the dog curling his lip and growling at him.

Comes now the "piece de re'sistance":


"So Am I correct to assume that in training we OVER train to expectations the we may never expect to enforce in Hunting or TESTING?? Seems to me we all just need a GREAT blind runnin dog!-- We can FAKE the rest!!"

You'll never get any of the hunt testing organizations to concur...they all adopted the AKC FT line concerning marking is of 'paramount importance', which it is when viewing a dogs inherent attributes over it's trained abilities; and certainly is when viewed as possible breeding stock. But for obtaining the best hunting dog, teaching singles, control, FF, switch-proofing, and handling are far superior to the need for the dog to mark a triple or quad.

But the hunt tests wouldn't be as much fun without the multiple marks we throw for our dogs to remember and pick up. It's what they were bred to do, and it shouldn't be minimized. It's all part of the various programs, and while I have my nit-picking differences with each of them, I enjoy running and judging them all.

UB

 

[Bubba]

Kevin,

Comes now the "piece de re'sistance":


"So Am I correct to assume that in training we OVER train to expectations the we may never expect to enforce in Hunting or TESTING?? Seems to me we all just need a GREAT blind runnin dog!-- We can FAKE the rest!!"

You'll never get any of the hunt testing organizations to concur...they all adopted the AKC FT line concerning marking is of 'paramount importance', which it is when viewing a dogs inherent attributes over it's trained abilities; and certainly is when viewed as possible breeding stock. But for obtaining the best hunting dog, teaching singles, control, FF, switch-proofing, and handling are far superior to the need for the dog to mark a triple or quad.

But the hunt tests wouldn't be as much fun without the multiple marks we throw for our dogs to remember and pick up. It's what they were bred to do, and it shouldn't be minimized. It's all part of the various programs, and while I have my nit-picking differences with each of them, I enjoy running and judging them all.

UB

Good dang thing you don't run the SRS.

Tackett's crew sees it differently

Just saying regards

Bubba