10/11 month old male started to spin. never on marks only on Back. He didn't do it on the back pile only did it after I had him doing overs then sending to back pile he would spin. I fixed it or so I thought. I would No here! and indirect pressure on sit and send. After a couple times of that he never did it again. Fast forward to today. I sold him and his new owner messaged me that he did a little back pile with him today and he spun everytime. So why do yall think dogs spin?
Why do dogs spin
Dave Burton
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10/11 month old male started to spin. never on marks only on Back. He didn't do it on the back pile only did it after I had him doing overs then sending to back pile he would spin. I fixed it or so I thought. I would No here! and indirect pressure on sit and send. After a couple times of that he never did it again. Fast forward to today. I sold him and his new owner messaged me that he did a little back pile with him today and he spun everytime. So why do yall think dogs spin?
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Pressure . more often confusion.
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No pressure and he pile is clearly visable.
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Pressure isn't always from the collar and just because a human doesn't think there is confusion, doesn't mean the dog feels the same way.
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Pressure does not have to be related to force (to pile), collar corrections, or other physical force. It can be associated with a verbal correction too (or indirect pressure, or attrition). Pressure just means the dog is being stressed some how - too much physical or mental pressure can lead to behaviors that we don't want. The right amount of pressure causes the change in behavior that we are hoping for without much, if any side effect (behavior we don't want).
So you think pressure will fix this? Please explain.
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Collar ignorance
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A man much smarter than me about dog training is said to have been quoted "what pressure creates, pressure can not fix".
Take the pressure away, build success, give the dog some time.
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Need more information; experienced handler, where is dog on program training wise, what was new owner trying to accomplish with his short pile?
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No. The confusion may very well be the dog not understanding why pressure is being applied. We teach them how to turn off pressure through performance. Many excellent collar people never apply pressure when the dog is moving away from them, performing.
I equate spinning to popping without the sit or checking(that glance over the shoulder). Which usually stems from a lack of confidence, Am I doing it right? just checking to make sure.
More teaching and less pressure will produce more confidence and less spinning.
JMO
Tim
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100% man made
I have had the same problem as described with my young dog. He started to spin when sent to the back pile. I have never experienced this problem before so I quit doing the force to the pile and asked questions from some of my Pro friends. Yes pressure the dog was feeling was the problem! Trish J said give me the dog and I will fix it and she did. She shortened up the back pile and used remote sits and back cast to the pile. It went well and I learned from this.
always keep your voice the same, back means back if you start to raise your voice it can cause confusion and a spin. If puppy seems confused another back command or several will help.
If you keep making the same mistakes and keep getting the same results you are teaching the dog to do what you do not want. That's insanity so stop get help and move on!
always keep your voice the same, back means back if you start to raise your voice it can cause confusion and a spin. If puppy seems confused another back command or several will help.
If you keep making the same mistakes and keep getting the same results you are teaching the dog to do what you do not want. That's insanity so stop get help and move on!
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Some dogs are also natural spinners prior to any pressure, T or whatever. This makes it more likely to show up somewhere.
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Why do dogs in general spin, or why does this dog spin? You've received some good general answers to your question that may or may not apply to your specific dog.
I have to say I'm surprised you fixed the problem with attrition, usually a "no-here" only reinforces the spinning popping problem as the dog starts to anticipate being stopped at a certain point. That is the usual case with a spin-pop, the dog launches on the back command, but if he's been stopped or recalled at a certain point, he looses his confidence, starts to second guess whether he's going correctly and looks for help from the handler. At this point the trainer needs to shift his focus from wanting the dog to go in the right direction, to just going anywhere. If he's going without the pop, that's good. We can handle out there a ways if he's off course.
Rather than a recall, we typically put pressure on "go", with a "back-burn-back" or "back-nick-back".
I have to say I'm surprised you fixed the problem with attrition, usually a "no-here" only reinforces the spinning popping problem as the dog starts to anticipate being stopped at a certain point. That is the usual case with a spin-pop, the dog launches on the back command, but if he's been stopped or recalled at a certain point, he looses his confidence, starts to second guess whether he's going correctly and looks for help from the handler. At this point the trainer needs to shift his focus from wanting the dog to go in the right direction, to just going anywhere. If he's going without the pop, that's good. We can handle out there a ways if he's off course.
Rather than a recall, we typically put pressure on "go", with a "back-burn-back" or "back-nick-back".
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I have one with a natural (possibly genetic) tendency to spin... he doesn't do it in field work because I have been very conscious of avoiding it but in ply he will spin on his own when he's excited.
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In this specific case if the dog was only recently transitioned to the new handler, his voice, body language and relationship with the dog are different from yours. That could hurt pup's confidence without ever using a collar on him. If there is pressure being applied, even fairly, the dog may be confused early on in his new relationship just because he doesn't understand the guy.
Dogs don't generalize like humans. Me saying "sit" and you saying "sit" are often two different things to a dog. They get over it quickly with some exposure but early on in a new relationship they sometimes don't understand.
I'm with Tim here - teach for a while without pressure and see what happens. I've seen it solved with indirect pressure and removing pressure. It depends on the dog.
Dogs don't generalize like humans. Me saying "sit" and you saying "sit" are often two different things to a dog. They get over it quickly with some exposure but early on in a new relationship they sometimes don't understand.
I'm with Tim here - teach for a while without pressure and see what happens. I've seen it solved with indirect pressure and removing pressure. It depends on the dog.
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Dave, I don't know if we had gotten it cleaned up before you saw him, but Chief was a horrible spinner. And I do believe there is some natural tendency for it. An example is the dog has "spun" in play or excitement since he was 8 weeks old. Also he goes through this strange spin ritual before every poop. EVERY TIME! Nonetheless, when it showed up in pile work, it was definitely pressure related. Not collar pressure but confusion. When I moved on to pattern blinds, we worked it out just as described by John. If he would just "go", didn't matter where. When he did spin, "back-burn-back" he seldom if ever spins anymore but I will get the occasional pop. Always due to confusion created by me missing a teaching step.
Good luck!!
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I have a female in transition that will spin too when she is confused and loses her confidence. She is super fast, and she doesn't stop after the spin. She will spin coming off the line about ten yards out and continue on her line. I have tried a back-nick-back unwinding her out of the spin. But due to her speed that has been a hit or miss as far as the timing of the correction and being able to unwind her before she gets all the way around. I have found in her case to just simplify, move up etc works best in stopping the behavior. She is a lot better than she used to be. It seems to be getting better as she matures and her level of training and confidence increases.
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