Pressure . more often confusion.

 

Right on: pressure and confusion.

 

No pressure and he pile is clearly visable.

 

Pressure isn't always from the collar and just because a human doesn't think there is confusion, doesn't mean the dog feels the same way.

 

Pressure does not have to be related to force (to pile), collar corrections, or other physical force. It can be associated with a verbal correction too (or indirect pressure, or attrition). Pressure just means the dog is being stressed some how - too much physical or mental pressure can lead to behaviors that we don't want. The right amount of pressure causes the change in behavior that we are hoping for without much, if any side effect (behavior we don't want).

 

Do not insist on turning right or left on the T. You may not know how the dog will see pressure,but something has happened. Pressure caused it,pressure HAS to fix it. Seek out a "Good" pro. Best of luck. Let us know how it works out.

 

So you think pressure will fix this? Please explain.

 

Collar ignorance

 

Need more information; experienced handler, where is dog on program training wise, what was new owner trying to accomplish with his short pile?

 

100% man made

 

I have one with a natural (possibly genetic) tendency to spin... he doesn't do it in field work because I have been very conscious of avoiding it but in ply he will spin on his own when he's excited.

 

I have had the same problem as described with my young dog. He started to spin when sent to the back pile. I have never experienced this problem before so I quit doing the force to the pile and asked questions from some of my Pro friends. Yes pressure the dog was feeling was the problem! Trish J said give me the dog and I will fix it and she did. She shortened up the back pile and used remote sits and back cast to the pile. It went well and I learned from this.
always keep your voice the same, back means back if you start to raise your voice it can cause confusion and a spin. If puppy seems confused another back command or several will help.
If you keep making the same mistakes and keep getting the same results you are teaching the dog to do what you do not want. That's insanity so stop get help and move on!

 

Some dogs are also natural spinners prior to any pressure, T or whatever. This makes it more likely to show up somewhere.

 

Why do dogs in general spin, or why does this dog spin? You've received some good general answers to your question that may or may not apply to your specific dog.

I have to say I'm surprised you fixed the problem with attrition, usually a "no-here" only reinforces the spinning popping problem as the dog starts to anticipate being stopped at a certain point. That is the usual case with a spin-pop, the dog launches on the back command, but if he's been stopped or recalled at a certain point, he looses his confidence, starts to second guess whether he's going correctly and looks for help from the handler. At this point the trainer needs to shift his focus from wanting the dog to go in the right direction, to just going anywhere. If he's going without the pop, that's good. We can handle out there a ways if he's off course.

Rather than a recall, we typically put pressure on "go", with a "back-burn-back" or "back-nick-back".

 

At this point the trainer needs to shift his focus from wanting the dog to go in the right direction, to just going anywhere. If he's going without the pop, that's good. We can handle out there a ways if he's off course.

Rather than a recall, we typically put pressure on "go", with a "back-burn-back" or "back-nick-back".

Dave, I don't know if we had gotten it cleaned up before you saw him, but Chief was a horrible spinner. And I do believe there is some natural tendency for it. An example is the dog has "spun" in play or excitement since he was 8 weeks old. Also he goes through this strange spin ritual before every poop. EVERY TIME! Nonetheless, when it showed up in pile work, it was definitely pressure related. Not collar pressure but confusion. When I moved on to pattern blinds, we worked it out just as described by John. If he would just "go", didn't matter where. When he did spin, "back-burn-back" he seldom if ever spins anymore but I will get the occasional pop. Always due to confusion created by me missing a teaching step.
Good luck!!

 

In this specific case if the dog was only recently transitioned to the new handler, his voice, body language and relationship with the dog are different from yours. That could hurt pup's confidence without ever using a collar on him. If there is pressure being applied, even fairly, the dog may be confused early on in his new relationship just because he doesn't understand the guy.

Dogs don't generalize like humans. Me saying "sit" and you saying "sit" are often two different things to a dog. They get over it quickly with some exposure but early on in a new relationship they sometimes don't understand.

I'm with Tim here - teach for a while without pressure and see what happens. I've seen it solved with indirect pressure and removing pressure. It depends on the dog.

 

I have 3 litter mates that all spin. One spins on marks when she hits what she thinks is the area of the fall. She spun in force to pile but was easily broken. Next dog spins at decision points. She is getting better but it is definitely perceived pressure. Last one no longer spins but does pop. It is a confidence issue. The simplification approach is working best for them but it is a two steps forward and one step back process.

 

I don't think its 100 percent man made. I think some dogs have it as a quirk or nervous behavior that stress will exaggerate. Kind of like stuttering that gets worse when someone is nervous. I've seen spinning in dogs trained non collar. I've seen some dogs that get excited in the area of the fall and spin during the hunt on a mark. Some spin when excited in the kennel. The stress of forcing to the pile can definitely bring it out in the open and make it worse IMO.

 

Would think this dog is in a mental pressure situation going to new home...

 

My girl would get so excited at a test, that she would spin as soon as I sent her on a blind than hall ass. Wasn't confusion or pressure, just so excited she could not stand it.

 

I never once seen one spin or pop when they were born or up to they were handed over to their new owners .
This may be a coincidence

 

After reading this thread, I observed my Chief closely for the past 2 days. He actually spins every time he is in an excited state. He spins at morning greeting, he spins when food bowl is presented, he spins when I pick up whistle or e-collar or open the car door. So I am beginning to believe that his early spinning on sends was like these things, not pressure. Of my three dogs, he is the only one who has done this. Very interesting.

 

I had a dog on the truck that would spin. The first time that I saw it was in basics doing pile work. No physical pressure was used. I chalked it up to confusion and would call back without pressure and resend. Later in transition the dog did everything that is "unfixable" on blinds. When he first started spinning I would unspin him and "depop". After weeks of this I finally decided it was avoidance and started to give a huge " NO" with a Nick and a callback followed by a Nick and scoot up and the spinning disappeared in two days. Then he would either pop or no go as avoidance and standard corrections were used and he got over both issues. Then we went to water where they happened again is sequence. Same corrections, got over all issues. Dog is now a really nice dog and got his HRCH this spring. With this dog it ended up being avoidance. Maybe percieved pressure was a contributing factor but ultimately consistent corrections with pressure solved the issue when simplification wasn't working. This dog taught me avoidance can also be a cause for spinning.