RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

Retriever in training refuses to retrieve

Jump to Latest
41 - 60 of 120 Posts
#41 ·
Bonefish10 said:
Because people are not listening to what im saying. Like accusing me of not completing FTP when i said numerous times that i have. Its not my fault this forum has their head up Lardy's ass and cant understand that there are numerous ways to train a dog. Common saying is not all dogs are the same during training. So why does Lardy's program have to be followed exactly the same with all dogs? it doesnt. People came on here making comments about issues that i am not having
Click to expand...
Lardy, Farmer, Rorem, Carr, name a trainer. If you say back and the dog doesn't go, its not forced to pile. End of story, there is no discussion.
 
#42 ·
There is a big step between a dog "knowing what you want" and knowing that compliance is mandatory, not optional. A dog can know what you'd like it to do and refuse...and if the tools aren't completely in place to push the issue and insist, then you've missed something along the way.
 
Discussion starter · #43 ·
Daren Galloway said:
View attachment 85405
Click to expand...
nice one boomer.
KwickLabs said:
"It's something you just have to work through. The dog has to learn that not going is not an option. Ever." and "
no-go's and bugging and popping and flaring are all things that could happen and are quite common. It's something
you just have to work through. The dog has to learn that not going is not an option. Ever."

Well, I waded through all the replies, solutions and excuses and the last one about "the dog needs to learn that
not going is not an option" seems to be the focus of most.

However, the dog learning vs. the trainer teaching seems to be avoided and replaced by the dog has no choice and
must do. Learning what is not an option is best approached by first of all NOT telling the dog you can't do that and
secondly providing an acceptable alternative. It is called teaching.

Corrections are often a "wet blanket". They are not rewarding and are acceptable ONLY when a dog knows (is taught)
the correct response. It is extremely unlikely that a dog will do something correctly even after a "correction" if the wrong
conditioned response is in place.

If "want too" is not demonstrated often and rewarded.....then "must do" will most likely be counter-productive.

Look at this mess. The dog will not go when sent. Therefore, we will forget about the fact that the dog does not
understand what "back" means when a "nick" is involved. The "nick" is not a message initially given to make the
dog go. That's just ignorant. The timing is significant! If it did...then why even bother with saying "back". And don't make
the mistake that thinking a nick is a correction because the dog does not know what he is doing wrong.

Too repeat, since the dog does not go after "back" and a "nick", it is rather obvious the dog does not understand. The
logic that nicking the dog (when he does a no go) pretty much verifies that it can't be a correction.

So there you have it. Dog does not go "back". He doesn't not understand. Therefore, he must be corrected?
The trainer is the one that needs a correction.

How does the following make any sense.

"It's something you just have to work through. The dog has to learn that not going is not an option. Ever."

What does "work through" mean? and that is another topic. ;)
Click to expand...
i appreciate your comment. For more back story, while forcing to the pile i did it entirely from the side until the pile was established out to 100 yards. i never did a left/right back cast. I forced to the pile from my side all the way up to 100 yards for 10-14 days. until the dog understood what "back" is. Then i transitioned to left/right back. Perhaps i introduced trouble by teaching them separately. i will go back and reteach from the side.
 
#44 ·
So an alternative point of view. Not to piss anyone off. Yes in the end when you send the dog on a blind retrieve it must go. It must know there is no other option.
BUT
Some dogs right in the middle of the flowchart gets stuck. And you twist them down hard with pressure upon pressure upon pressure and you can do things that dog will carry the rest of its working career. Sometimes it is easier to trick a dog into doing what you wanted to do just so you can get through the step and get the dog working and be able to praise it for doing a good job. Then you can ease back into you're Force program and carry on. My suggestion of putting a couple live Birds at your back pile will in most cases get the dog up get the dog having fun. It's not my idea it's a very old idea. As was said to me one time by my very first mentor. When doing a blind retrieve do you want the dog running away from you in fear or running to something with excitement? I had a great conversation 1 time years ago working the line bagging birds at a field trial. I walked back to the trucks with a feller whose dog broke on the blind retrieve. The handlers response walking back was sometimes he just has so much fun he can't wait to go do it. While it was a crash and burn for this Feller overall it's a great attitude for a dog to have. You want to shoot for the boy I'm going to go get a bird attitude on your blinds. Not the old darn we have to do a blind retrieve attitude.
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Sharon Potter said:
There is a big step between a dog "knowing what you want" and knowing that compliance is mandatory, not optional. A dog can know what you'd like it to do and refuse...and if the tools aren't completely in place to push the issue and insist, then you've missed something along the way.
Click to expand...
thanks for the comment. i will go revisit past material
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
Kenneth Niles Bora said:
So an alternative point of view. Not to piss anyone off. Yes in the end when you send the dog on a blind retrieve it must go. It must know there is no other option.
BUT
Some dogs right in the middle of the flowchart gets stuck. And you twist them down hard with pressure upon pressure upon pressure and you can do things that dog will carry the rest of its working career. Sometimes it is easier to trick a dog into doing what you wanted to do just so you can get through the step and get the dog working and be able to praise it for doing a good job. Then you can ease back into you're Force program and carry on. My suggestion of putting a couple live Birds at your back pile will in most cases get the dog up get the dog having fun. It's not my idea it's a very old idea. As was said to me one time by my very first mentor. When doing a blind retrieve do you want the dog running away from you in fear or running to something with excitement? I had a great conversation 1 time years ago working the line bagging birds at a field trial. I walked back to the trucks with a feller whose dog broke on the blind retrieve. The handlers response walking back was sometimes he just has so much fun he can't wait to go do it. While it was a crash and burn for this Feller overall it's a great attitude for a dog to have. You want to shoot for the boy I'm going to go get a bird attitude on your blinds. Not the old darn we have to do a blind retrieve attitude.
Click to expand...
i think you said it correctly. it seems like my dog is not having fun at this point in her training because its the same drills over and over again. This type of mindset is what keeps the dog going. After all they are lab retrievers because they like to retrieve
 
#53 ·
After re-reading this "We have accomplished the following: basic obedience, force fetch, collar conditioning, back, left
right back, and over. She has run the T drill from a stationary position."

Roughly how many weeks/sessions did it take you to work through all of this?"
 
#56 ·
The following was in a previous post....from quite awhile ago.

"I forced to the pile from my side all the way up to 100 yards for 10-14 days."

This was just posted.

"Is there any balance in the dogs life?"

There is a point to be made out of this......maybe? What else did you do during those 10-14 days?

From my experience, doing too much pile work with the wrong dog will come back to bite you. Don't
ask me how I know this. :rolleyes:
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
KwickLabs said:
After re-reading this "We have accomplished the following: basic obedience, force fetch, collar conditioning, back, left
right back, and over. She has run the T drill from a stationary position."

Roughly how many weeks/sessions did it take you to work through all of this?"
Click to expand...
I started at 5.5 months with obedience and she’s right at 11 months. So on average 3-4 weeks per skill
 
Discussion starter · #58 ·
KwickLabs said:
The following was in a previous post....from quite awhile ago.

"I forced to the pile from my side all the way up to 100 yards for 10-14 days."

This was just posted.

"Is there any balance in the dogs life?"

There is a point to be made out of this......maybe? What else did you do during those 10-14 days?

From my experience, doing too much pile work with the wrong dog will come back to bite you. Don't
ask me how I know this. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
What do you mean balance? She is 23.5 hours/day family dog. I only need her to focus 10-30 minutes a day on whatever drills we are working on
 
41 - 60 of 120 Posts
About this Discussion
119 Replies
27 Participants
Last post:
ErinsEdge
RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF
posts
1.5M
members
36K
Since
2003
A forum community dedicated to retriever owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, training, health, behavior, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
General Retriever Training Forum Event Information AKC Field Trials Equipment, Gear & Miscellaneous Classifieds Training