[Steve Shaver]

Verbal ONLY is actually more difficult for the dog, but the point is - obedience is obedience. That means do whatever I say whenever I say it, regardless of context, not just repeat a given pattern.

When dogs get programmed to a pattern and then it doesn't happen exactly right, you can get a lot of protest, movement, anxiety, etc...

This is where a lot of the noise and movement problems on the line are coming from.

So does that not suggest that you program that pattern and keep to that standard??

Verbal ONLY is actually more difficult for the dog, but the point is - obedience is obedience. That means do whatever I say whenever I say it, regardless of context,​

not just repeat a given pattern.​

So to me your 2 sentences kinda contradict each other???

​

 

[Steve Shaver]

Such as it is... I bet verbal only would be twice as hard as physical cue only. From the standpoint of making thing more difficult - add conflicting physical and verbal cues. LOL.... I think non verbal make the dog pay attn to the handler from the perspective of 'I have to watch to get what I want - or be aware of my handler's gestures and/or movements'...

Gary also goes into some discussion about 'things not going right' - whether that is delays, having to go back to the holding blind because of issue in the field, handler being distracted from the dog, etc..

Yes, obedience is obedience, no matter what is going on around you. And I do think not having a set pattern the dog can anticipate is important. It also keeps them from anticipating what will be asked of them next.

This subject is rather interesting to me. I think a set pattern can go both ways. Whether it is a HT FT or hunting you cannot get away from that anticipation no matter what you do. My 6 yr old (Cosmo son) is an angel in the holding blind. I didnt watch that whole video but I completely agree with the dog facing out. When I approach the holding blind with Bill I just give a kennel command. He goes right in turns around and sits I don't need to go with him. If im there very long he lays down. He is like this whether there are two or 5 holding blinds but he certainly knows which one is the last one. He is good in the last one too but when you bring him out he knows it's game time. So his patterned programed routine is just chill till it's time to play.

 

[Steve Shaver]

Creating a pattern encourages the dog to mentally jump ahead to the end, which is the retrieve. Then they get frustrated when you don't allow them to leave the line in a timely fashion. Vocal protest and lots of antsy movement can result from that frustration.

If your dog is obedient and doesn't know what the next command is going to be, they will keep you in mind, listening intently for instruction, rather than tuning you out and getting frustrated.

Some people (Hillman) add a backward step. One of the dogs in my first training group got an off line throw very frequently.

In the end though, it's the pattern that creates the problem in the first place.

I see this a lot in dogs of all shapes and sizes. It's particularly prevalent in sports where people run the patterns over and over.

As with everything - people will disagree, having had success with pattern training. That's cool if it's working for you.

I totally agree with you BUT there is no avoiding it completely.
A large part of what we all do is creating patterns. I do it, you do it, we all do it. It's called repetition. Whether it's heel, sit, stay, here. It is easy to teach a dog these things but we set a pattern by repetition until it becomes absolute habit. Like everything you need to have balance in programing good habits or patterns and not creating bad habits or patterns and maintain good obedience. I do everything I can to keep my dog focused on me and the obedience standard he has been taught. My holding blind routine is to do what I tell them what ever that may be I try my best not to be robotic in proceeding through the holding blinds. When heeling from blind to blind if the dog gets ahead of me I stop and they heel back. I do teach my dogs to heel backwards and use that a lot just to break things up so they realize they aint gettin what they want without me and that it is not strictly forward progress.
It is impossible to avoid programing patterns. In training you can take a dog to the line pull them off and put them back in the truck to break up the pattern but they still know the game. I have a very high drive 2 yr old that is a bit noisy so I often throw her marks and pull her off and run a blind just to try to avoid that anticipation. My dogs know whats going on when they get loaded in the truck. I can drive 150 miles to a trial with dogs in crates under a shell on the truck and they are fine but the second I get to the trial grounds they know it! I can get them out to air numerous times and put them back but they still know when they are headed to the line. If you have a way to avoid this then you are magic!!!!!! There is no way of avoiding programing these types of patterns. You can only hope to control it with a different pattern which is good solid obedience. Just like flyers every dog that comes to the line will pick out the flyer station. Everybody will disagree with me on flyers but I never throw my dogs flyers. The only time they see flyers is at a trial or hunting. Do they get more excited over a flyer? Hell yes but they are not crazy for them. The only way to avoid programing a bad pattern is to program a good one. I contend that training patterns is what its all about. You just have to create good ones and avoid bad ones. So if you can train a dog without creating a pattern Im packin my bags and heading to Souf Joisy!!!!!!!! I want to know how to do that!!